Radio Interview, ABC Sydney Mornings

SUBJECTS: Remembrance Day; OpenAI Rapid Review; Nvidia; Data Centres

HAMISH MCDONALD, HOST: This morning, Australia pauses to commemorate those who served in war, in conflicts and in peacekeeping operations. Remembrance Day is observed each year on November 11^th. That’s the date that guns fell silent on the Western Front, back in 1918. So that is 108 ago this year. Each year, one minute of silence is held at the 11th hour, on the 11th day, of the 11th month. This year, 11 Australian unknown soldiers killed in World War I have been formally identified for the first time. Three of them are from this state, from NSW. One of them has a family connection to our next guest, the Defence Minister and Acting Prime Minister Richard Marles is here. Good morning to you. 

RICHARD MARLES, DEPUTY PRIME MINISTER: Good morning, Hamish.

MCDONALD: We'll get to Remembrance Day and also the remarkable story of your own family connection. But I do need to ask you about some news of the day. Turning to AI, a rapid review was released yesterday which was launched when an OpenAI artificial agent breached government networks, accessed private Medicare data. It appears OpenAI broke no laws. How is that so? Can you explain?

MARLES: Well, I mean, there was obviously an investigation that was undertaken as part of the rapid review. That does appear to be the case. We're talking about a really novel situation. I mean, to be clear, we were the first government in the world to notify an incident of this kind where an agent of AI had got into a site. In that sense it's a very significant incident and hence the fact that we notified it globally and have engaged in the rapid review. It's probably important to just note that the constant of it were very minor. The information that was accessed was aggregated data, it wasn't anyone's personal data and in fact the data we've since made public.

MCDONALD: So would you introduce a standalone failure to prevent offence? I suppose that seems to be the focus of much of the speculation. 

MARLES: When we're talking about, you know, a non‑human agent engaging in this behaviour, which is identified with a company, so ultimately there are humans in the chain here, that our criminal law needs to be updated to account for this new world that we're living in.

MCDONALD: But can you help listeners understand what the principle is here? Like if you as an individual ask an AI tool to do something, are you responsible for whatever it does? Or is the tech company responsible for that? Who's actually responsible for what the tool does?

MARLES: Yeah, and again, this becomes hard to explain and it is really where we need to go through a process of getting our law right.

MCDONALD: But shouldn't we know what the fundamental is there?

MARLES: Yeah, I mean, so there will be elements in respect of the way in which the AI agent has been constructed and operates. So, the way in which the model goes about what it does. There'll be elements in respect of the prompt for the model. So, for example, in relation to this incident, in terms of kind of training this new AI version that OpenAI was doing, it gave it a very benign task which was to do a research task in relation to, you know, public health statistics, which is why it ended up where it ended up. But the prompt is a key part of why an AI agent goes off and does what it does. So, you know, I think this will be a case of looking at the prompts that are involved in the circumstance, the way in which the AI agent is constructed in the circumstance, and ultimately bringing that back to the decisions, the human decisions that have been taken by the owners of this technology or the developers of this technology. But, you know, there's a lot of work which needs to be done to develop this. 

MCDONALD: I wanted to ask you about the Nvidia story. The boss of Nvidia, Jensen Huang, is accused of having an affair with a Chinese spy, Alice Huang. No relation. The US President Donald Trump said the FBI is investigating the affair. He says he also spoke to Jensen Huang about this.

US PRESIDENT DONALD TRUMP [EXCERPT]: I've been hearing about it and I've been reading a little bit about it over a period of time not too long ago, and we'll look into it. I know the FBI is looking into it in terms of something else and I think that he'll be in good shape.

MCDONALD: I wanted to ask you, Richard Marles, as Defence Minister does it concern you that some of the Australian data centre tech bosses have also been captured in images with Jensen Huang and Alice Huang, this alleged spy. And those include NextDC's Craig Scroggie, Greg Bora from CDC, Jack Dan from CDC. Is that something that is alarming to you?

MARLES: I wouldn't use those words. So, firstly, this is a process that will now be gone through in the United States and I think we should let that process run. From an Australian point of view, we have very significant protections in place in terms of people's protected status, in the way in which they can access our key information and our key technologies, and that applies in the private sector as well, and we're pretty confident about the robustness of that regime–

MCDONALD: Are any of the Australian agencies investigating what the relationship might be between Craig Scroggie and Alice Huang? He's photographed or videoed, in fact, alongside her in Taiwan.

MARLES: Well, I wouldn't go into any investigations and so I wouldn't comment on any of that. But what I would say is that, you know, in terms of the system that we operate, it is robust and we have very good security measures in place. The processes by which people obtain security clearances to handle our nation's secrets, but also to engage in our key technologies is very robust and we're confident about that. But I think this also–

MCDONALD: But could you assure Australian listeners, though, that if there is something to be concerned about, that our authorities, our relevant authorities would be looking into it?

MARLES: Yeah, absolutely that's the case. And I think that the point to make is, without reflecting on this specific case, you know, we are living in a world where there is more espionage than there has been for a long time. A lot of that is particularly around emerging technologies. And we are very alive to this, and we maintain a security system which is robust and is regarded as as good as any in the world, and we put a lot of effort into this. You know, when you think about what we're about to do in terms of building our future nuclear‑powered submarines, for example, which are as high tech as you can get, a real part of how we're thinking about all of that is the security clearances that are provided to those who are engaged in that at every level.

MCDONALD: Sure. But I mean, you know, for people listening here in Sydney, they know these names. These businesses are trying to build enormous data centres all over Sydney, some of them extremely controversial. A lot of Sydneysiders don't want them anywhere near their suburb. And these characters are filmed alongside an alleged Chinese spy. Can you see why this might diminish trust in these organisations?

MARLES: Well, I think we're conflating a number of issues there. I mean, there is the protection of technologies and the protection of information, we maintain a robust security system around that. In terms of where data centres are, I mean, we are in the process of working through very robust AI standards which will go to that question as to where data centres should be and they should not be where there are suburbs. And I mean, there is enormous opportunity, I think, for the Australian economy here. But it matters that data centres are inappropriate places and suburbs are not an appropriate place for data centres, and we've been really clear about that–

MCDONALD: Suburbs, full stop, are not an appropriate place for data centres?

MARLES: No, I mean, data centres need to be in places where it's appropriate to have them, given what they do and the suburbs is not a place where you would want to have data centres. It's also really important that we are putting in place measures which see those who are building the data centres bringing an appropriate amount of power and water actually to the equation in terms of managing them– 

MCDONALD: Frankly, Deputy Prime Minister, I think there'll be a lot of people in Sydney hearing you say this this morning about suburbs not being an appropriate place for data centres that will be quite shocked to hear that, given how many of them are proposed already going ahead in Sydney suburbs.

MARLES: Well I mean, data centres I think do represent an opportunity for Australia and for the economy. It is part of the future that we're going into. But the appropriate management of them, which is both in respect of how they're powered and the water which goes into them, but also where they are, is a key part of getting this right. And, you know, I think it's really clear that having data centres close to communities is obviously not what's appropriate.

MCDONALD: Richard Marles is here, the Deputy Prime Minister, Acting Prime Minister, in fact, and the Defence Minister. Australia will mark Remembrance Day at 11 o'clock this morning. Quite a remarkable personal connection for you and your family today to one of the 11 Australian Unknown Soldiers who've been formally identified for the first time who were killed in World War I. Can you explain it, please?

MARLES: Yeah, I mean, it is an amazing story and completely unexpected for me, but I was notified just a few weeks ago that my great uncle, the brother of my grandmother who I knew, Lieutenant Andrew Anderson, who died on 20 September 1917, in the Battle of Menin Road in Belgium, who has been in the Hooge Crater Cemetery, which is one of the Commonwealth War Graves in Belgium, under an unknown to his headstone for more than a century, has now been formally identified. And, you know, I’m a close living relative to him. There's a number of us, in terms of my cousins and actually second cousins. But it's an extraordinary story and he was mentioned in dispatches at Pozieres, he was there at Gallipoli. It's an incredible. I mean, he was kind of there at all the major moments of the First World War. And to learn that about one's own family, well, firstly, makes me feel incredibly proud of the service that he provided. I'm really grateful for being able to be brought more in touch with his life and his story and I'm so grateful that people have done that work. But it's another way in which we can all just take a moment to remember the 103,000 Australians who've made the ultimate sacrifice wearing our nation's uniform and acknowledge the work of all of those who've worn our uniform and continue to wear it today in defending our country and our way of life.

MCDONALD: Richard Marles, thank you very much.

MARLES: Thanks, Hamish.

ENDS