Television Interview, ABC Afternoon Briefing

Subjects: Pauline Hanson’s NPC address, Middle East conflict 

PATRICIA KARVELAS [HOST]: I want to bring in my political panel for today. Assistant Minister for Defence Peter Khalil and Liberal MP Garth Hamilton. Welcome to both of you. Ok, a lot was said in Pauline Hanson's address today, lots of different angles. I'll start with you if I can, Garth Hamilton, because you've been pursuing One Nation for some time now. So, you're opponents of One Nation leader Pauline Hanson. We're happy, can I say, to have her on this program any time. She still is unwilling to speak to the ABC. But Pauline Hanson lashed out a Guardian Australian journalist, Sarah Martin, during the question and answer session at the National Press Club. She was asked a question about Pauline Hanson's daughter Lee, who works as an advisor to a One Nation Senator. It got rather personal. What did you make of that exchange?

GARTH HAMILTON [MEMBER FOR GROOM]: Well, I like being the conservative who surprises you, so I'm going to defend the Guardian journalist here. I thought that was a very fair question. I think it's a very fair question. Pauline has anointed her daughter as the successor to her party, even though she doesn't hold political office. And there's a serious question, I think, did Pauline have any role in the appointment of her daughter, who lives in Tasmania, to work for a Senator in NSW? I. Look, I've got to tell you, the pub test is not ticking Pauline's box right here. I think there is something there. I think it is a fair question when you've got – I think Australians want to have some integrity in their processes. We've got reasonably strict laws around employing direct family members in an MP's office and how that plays out. I think there's a fair question there and it shouldn't have been treated that way from Pauline. That was not just echoes of Trump, that was thunderclaps of Trump in the way that she dealt with the press. And quite frankly, Angus [Taylor] is right. There's a lot of angry Australians. I think they should watch that address and watch that anger, because there's no answers there, there's no solutions, there's no details, there's just anger.

KARVELAS: Ok, you say just anger. Peter Khalil. Yes, there was that exchange with Sarah Martin, but in fact, Pauline Hanson's been getting a lot of support from ordinary Australians. Do you really think if they watch the address, they'll somehow think that she's got it wrong?

PETER KHALIL [ASSISTANT MINISTER]: Well, I think it's a start. Patricia, it’s great that the ABC and National Press Club – this is going to sound strange to viewers, but I'm glad that she got all that air time at the National Press Club and it was broadcast on the ABC because someone who's putting themselves forward in office to take responsibility with policies should be scrutinised, and she was today. And you know, again we saw the siren call of the classic right wing populism, taking a kernel of truth, a kernel of anger and grievance and really trying to exacerbate that. Riling up anger and division, blaming scapegoats for it, whether it's a particular migrant group or a religious group or a particular policy, and then not really having any substance or solutions, just slogans. And actually, though, when she did come up with a couple of things with a bit more detail, it sort of got picked apart and we could see the actual impact of that. And then you've got to just look at her voting record. She was crying crocodile tears about the problems that people have. And there are people that have problems in this country. That's what we were trying to address, those problems, in Parliament and as government. But she voted against penalty rates. She wants to scrap them. She voted against increases in the minimum wage. She voted against same job, same pay. She voted against work rights and conditions, the very things that would actually help 13 million working Australians. She voted against. So, I think it's important that people see what she's actually putting forward, what she stands for, a little bit more detail and also what she's actually done in the Parliament of Australia.

KARVELAS: Garth Hamilton, I'm going to put that same question, the framing, to you too. Isn't the problem for both of your parties, to be honest – as you know, the two historically mainstream parties of government – that maybe people will watch it and like it? Garth Hamilton, isn't that the problem for your party?

HAMILTON: I think there is a resonance there for people who've felt that they've been ignored, who felt that division has played out across this country and they feel their backs to the wall, somehow, that the creation of us versus them has happened in Australia. And that's an unfortunate legacy this government has to deal with. And unfortunately, yes, it is resonating with people. What's going to work and what will always work in these cases is scrutiny. Scrutiny is the enemy of populist movements. People need to see there are no solutions here. And I think there's going to come a time as we get closer to the election that people make a very different decision than they're making now, when they answer the pollsters, are you going to support Pauline? I think they're going to have to ask themselves, is this someone who I really want to govern this nation? And that's a very different question to the one that's being asked right now. We're so far away from an election. That's a very different question. I think people will respond differently on the basis PK that we provide very credible policies that speak to the concerns that they have.

KARVELAS: One of the big things she raised was wanting Australia to be monocultural, not multicultural. Peter Khalil, I know because I often drive through the electorate you represent Peter, a very multicultural community. She singled out two languages, both Mandarin and Arabic, as languages being spoken at home at high levels. Are these issues for Australia's cohesion, do you think? Are people troubled by people not speaking English at home?

KHALIL: A couple of points about this. I grew up speaking Arabic at home, Egyptian Arabic dialect. My Nanna, who's 101 now, she worked really hard in factories when she came to Australia in, you know, middle of her life when they migrated in the early late 60s, early 70s. She speaks a little bit of English, but she worked really hard in factories. She contributed, she paid taxes and she's been an amazing grandmother for a big family here who have all contributed to this country. And I think the question people have got to ask – yes, we are a multi faith, multi ethnic, multicultural, multiracial country. And the great idea of Australia that we're able to come from all parts of the world, unless you're a First Nations Australian, and live in relative harmony, doesn't mean we won't disagree with each other. I disagree with Garth on a whole range of issues around policies and so on, but we debate that in the Parliament through our democratic processes. We don't attack each other personally – well we try not to attack each other personally, Garth. But the point is, what culture, what monoculture is she seeking? Because I can tell you now, the culture of people that live in the northern suburbs of Melbourne is quite different than the people that live on the south east, south of the Yarra. The culture of Collingwood supporters is very different than the culture of Carlton supporters. We are a multicultural country. But we can navigate those differences and we do that with respect. We do that and that's what makes Australia such a wonderfully unique country. And there's not many democracies left in the world. There's certainly not many democracies that have this diversity. And I've always said it's actually a strength of our nation to navigate through this. What she represents, though, what she talks about, is actually dividing us based on our identities. She seeks to divide. She picks on, you know, a scapegoat. She picks on particular minorities and goes – I mean, you remember 28 years ago, some of us remember, she said we were being swamped by Asians. The impact, the detrimental impact that had on Asian Australians and our place in the world with our trading partners in Southeast Asia was real. And she's doing it again. It's the same playbook now. The scrutiny. I agree with Garth on this. There has to be scrutiny. We are scrutinised every day in our jobs with what we're putting forward as a government or an opposition. Rightly so. And we scrutinise each other. That's part of the process. So, now she's going to feel some of the heat. It should be out there and we will see. And it's up to the Australian people to decide.

KARVELAS: Garth, should we be a monoculture?

HAMILTON: PK, I'm as white as it gets. I could take you to the family graveyard. That's split very clearly between Catholics and Protestants. We were never a monoculture. We've always had divisions. I think there's certainly conversations around how we come together and the practice of migration in Australia. Certainly we've got issues we need to talk about. We always have. That's part of our story being an immigrant nation. We've got lots of things to deal with. But look, I'm sitting in a conversation with three Australians here, and we all have very different backgrounds, yet we're all pretty clearly Australians.

KARVELAS: Yeah, we're definitely all Australians. I think that's the entry price of coming on this show. Mainly, mainly. We have international people who come on. But I did speak another language at home, Garth, and she did raise that as an issue. Is it an issue?

HAMILTON: I don't think it's a huge issue at all. When you came up here, I think I showed you around, we've got 8,000 Yazidis here. They speak a very different language at home. We've been blessed with waves of immigration throughout my region, Queensland and rest of Australia. I don't think that's the issue. That's really at the heart of it. But mind you, because she went off on a fair few tangents in that speech. I don't think we’re really speaking to the issues at the heart of Australians.

KARVELAS: Right. And yet she's the preferred Prime Minister in Australia, Peter Khalil. Is the Labor Party getting serious about taking her on? Do you see her as your main opponent now?

KHALIL: Well, what we do is continually contrast with the delivery. We're delivering on things. Like today, the Prime Minister announced an increase in the wages for childcare workers, some of the lowest paid workers in Australia. And incidentally, if she ever was able to implement some of that immigration policy, how would that actually work? What about all the aged care workers who look after our elderly grandparents? What about all the teachers? What about all the childcare workers and the kindergarten teachers that look after the kids and teach the kids? I mean, these are all made up largely of people who've migrated to this country to start a better life, to have a better life, to contribute to this country like my parents did and so many other millions of Australians. I mean, I'm not sure she maybe doesn't understand that the reality of Australia is that we are this diverse country. We are a nation of migration. Immigration has built this country and the diversity of that and the language skills is actually an advantage that we have, particularly with our engagement with the rest of the world. So, we'll keep putting forward policies and delivering on those policies to address the issues that people are feeling disaffected, they're feeling that the system doesn't work for them. That's why we're trying to address housing, putting such an investment in Medicare and cost of living pressures. We have our arguments with the opposition. They think they should do it in a different way. We think we should do it in a particular way. That's fine. There's ideological difference. That's what democracy is about. And I just, I really think that that kind of populist rhetoric is dangerous in the sense that if she ever does articulate those ideas that she has, people I hope will see how detrimental it is to their lives and to the nation and to the economy.

KARVELAS: I want to change the topic from Hanson. We've given it a bit of coverage today because she is leading in the polls and, and I think it needed kind of a discussion point around it. But I just want to end on the resolution potentially, although we don't know so much of the detail, but of the war between the US And Iran. Garth Hamilton, you've been consistently critical of the US adventure here as we've come hopefully to a lasting peace. Do you think the world is safer after this four month war ceasefire?

HAMILTON: Ceasefire 6.0? No, I'm not sure. I'm not sure that it is. You know, the exit conditions appear to be the reopening of the Straits of Hormuz, which were open before the war. There's still an amount of uranium in Iran that is unaccounted for. I'm not sure the Iranian people are any freer or, you know, find themselves under any less persecution than they did before. And I'm not sure Iran walks away from this with less confidence than it had beforehand. I think Iran would be very happy with the outcome of this particular engagement. And I point out it hasn't been resolved yet. The deal hasn't been done. So, who knows, PK? Honestly, who knows? The US are our ally. It's important that we can speak strongly to them. But we have paid a toll for this war in Australia, it has driven up prices.

KARVELAS: Peter Khalil, is the world safer? Really?

KHALIL: Well, I mean, the world is not a safe place at the moment. Let's just be honest about this. It's volatile. The strategic circumstances are the most volatile and most uncertain that they have been in decades. Probably since the end of World War II. There's conflict all over the globe. It's really unsettled. There are shifting power dynamics with the major powers and with countries across the world. And we're navigating through this very, very difficult period. And what we are trying to do is ensure that we maintain the security and stability in the Indo Pacific region particularly, and look after Australia's national interests as we navigate our relationships with countries across the globe. I hope that the ceasefire sticks and that there's a resumption of normal international traffic through the Straits of Hormuz. It's going to take a while to unblock that blockage and de-mine the Straits of Hormuz. There's a lot of mines that have been placed there as well. And we hope that the combatants don't resume any hostilities and that people aren't being attacked like civilians were being attacked in some of the Gulf states, including, you know, I think we know that there's tens of thousands of Australians that live in the UAE, for example. We want to see a de-escalation. We want to see a stability and peace in the region. It's good for the region and for the world and that's what we're constantly working at diplomatically and in our efforts as a government.

KARVELAS: Thank you to both of you. It's been a good conversation this afternoon. Appreciate your time.

KHALIL: Thank you.

ENDS