Television Interview, ABC Afternoon Briefing

SUBJECTS: President Herzog visit, Liberal leadership, foreign interference charges

STEPHANIE BORYS [HOST]: Let's bring in my political panel for today. Peter Khalil is the Assistant Defence Minister and Dave Sharma is a Liberal Senator for New South Wales. Thank you both for coming in this afternoon. Peter, I'll start. Let me start with you - the protests. The Prime Minister said last month that the aim of this visit was partly to create unity. Given the protests we've seen, has that achieved that?

PETER KHALIL [ASSISTANT MINISTER]: Well, Steph, a couple of points on this. I think the Prime Minister clearly articulated the purpose of the trip. The President has a ceremonial role very similar to our Governor-General, he’s being invited to show solidarity and console Jewish Australians and the broader community over the mourning of horrific loss of life at Bondi. But he also equally pointed out the importance that peace in the Middle East is dependent upon us being able to engage with both Israelis and Palestinians, keeping that dialogue open, even when we disagree with the actions. Our government has disagreed with many of the Netanyahu Government's actions. We've sanctioned two Israeli Cabinet Ministers, we've called for a ceasefire at the UN or voted for it, we've provided visas for Palestinians, we've increased humanitarian aid and we've recognised Palestine, all issues that are in disagreement. Having said that, the President should be afforded respect, as we would expect our Governor-General, when she visits another country, to be treated with that same respect, even if the people of that country disagree with our policies. That's just normal protocol.

BORYS: But do you concede this hasn't really been a unifying moment for Australia, as the Prime Minister had hoped, given those protests?

KHALIL: Well, with respect to the protests and I've said this many, many times, there's a lot of suffering in the world. There's tens of thousands of people who've died in Gaza. There's tens of hundreds of thousands who've died in Sudan. There's tens of thousands dying in Iran as we speak. Australians have every right to protest and raise those issues. Freedom of expression, as long as it's done peacefully and respectfully. The vast majority of protests have been peaceful where there are incidents of incitement of hatred or incitement of violence or worse, violence itself that is clearly unacceptable and breaches the law and needs to be addressed. So, I've always supported the fundamental democratic right for people to protest freely as long as it's peaceful and respectful.

BORYS: Dave, do you think the visit has been worth it? Was. Was this worth allowing the President to come to Australia, given some of the. The anger that we've seen?

DAVE SHARMA [NSW SENATOR]: Well, I don't think we can allow these sorts of decisions about who we invite to Australia to be held hostage to, you know, a group of several thousand angry activists. To be honest, the purpose of the Israeli President's visit was to condole, offer condolences and commiserate and mourn with the families of some of the victims who were killed in that horrible terrorist attack. And he didn't come here with a message of antagonism or hate. He wasn't here, you know, trying to bring malice amongst our community. He was here for that simple purpose. And I wish that the people who are out protesting, I don't deny their right to protest, but I wish they'd been respectful of that purpose.

BORYS: Two MPs in Question Time didn't attend out of protest of the fact that Israel's president is here. Is that appropriate in your eyes?

SHARMA: Look, they're free to make those decisions. They represent their communities. I wouldn't make that decision, but, you know, I'd prefer that they do that rather than, you know, try and disrupt proceedings or, you know, create an obstacle to his visit. I respect people's right to have different views on this, but my view is quite clear on this that Israel's president, Isaac Herzog, was welcome and should have been welcomed in Australia, and I'm glad he's made that visit.

BORYS: We're talking about unity, social cohesion. Peter, you were the Special Envoy for Social Cohesion. What was the number one issue that was brought up when you were in that role? Was there a particular race or ethnicity that was sort of top of the list compared to others? Did you sort of notice the trend there?

KHALIL: Yeah, that's a good question, Steph. In the six to eight months I was in that role, one of the main things that came up in the consultations and the engagement with so many different multicultural communities was this polarisation that has occurred where people of different ethnic background or faiths were starting to not talk to each other in a way that they should be. I think social cohesion is really predicated on our ability, our commitment as Australians to the idea of a diverse, pluralistic society in which there's a multi ethnic, multi faith society. So, that even if we disagree, and I disagree with Dave on a lot of things we can do, we can still engage with each other peacefully and respectfully, even if there's vehement disagreement. Now, that is a commitment that generations of Australians have made that makes our multicultural society work. And that's commitment of ordinary citizens. There is a responsibility of political leaders to be clear and stand firm against divisive rhetoric, hateful speech, pass laws as we have around hate speech, for example. But even before the law enters the picture, there is a responsibility that Australians have an obligation to be able to engage with each other without resorting to inciting hatred because of someone's faith or ethnicity or sexuality or other attribute, and certainly not resorting to violence. And this is why I say the vast majority of protests have been peaceful. They have every fundamental right to protest. But where it crosses over into that incitement, that's unacceptable and that's what breaks down our cohesion.

BORYS: The Prime Minister has been talking about turning the temperature down, especially even with politicians. I mean, this week's been pretty ugly here in Parliament. I appreciate you're in the Senate, so it's not sitting. Do you think the way politicians have been acting in the chamber has gone a little bit too far? And that you, as MPs and senators, aren't actually leading by example either?

SHARMA: Look, I've really been in Senate Estimates the last week I saw that the Speaker, Milton Dick, you know, made a statement to the Parliament before question time in the House of Representatives. I did actually ask some of my staff what's been going on. I must have missed this. So, I would, just as a general point, you know, politicians should model good behaviour, but we also need to remember that modelling good behaviour doesn't mean we need to be agreeing all the time. It's a robust democracy..

KHALIL: There's a difference.

SHARMA: We're meant to have a contest of ideas. Our political system is adversarial by design, and it should be. But the adversarial nature needs to have clear limits. And I think most politicians respect that. I know Peter certainly does. I certainly do.

KHALIL: Do you know, Steph, and Dave might not know, I'm not sure if it's in the Senate, but the dispatch box between the Prime Minister and the Leader of the Opposition, is actually two sword lengths. So, the idea there is that you have this contest of ideas without resort to pulling out your sword and stabbing the other guy. You know, that is what democracy is predicated on.

BORYS: Yep. Now, Peter, I'm going to leave you be for a little bit. It's not Labor having a leadership problem at the moment. You've been there, done that in the past. Dave, of course, we do have to ask about what's going on with the Liberals. Does Angus Taylor need to come out today and just explain whether he does want to run for the leadership or is letting it go?

SHARMA: Well, look, I think anyone who believes that they could do a better job in leading the Liberal Party right now, and it's a difficult time, yes, they should put their hands up and put their name forward and we should resolve this issue. I don't know if Angus Taylor is intending to declare his candidacy. I don't know if anyone else is. I'm probably not much better informed than you and your readers on this, but it's important that the distraction that this leadership issue continues to cause us is put to bed one way or the other. Because I'm conscious that we're not doing the job that we should as elected representatives here to represent communities or as an opposition in holding the government to account. And it's difficult to do that when all anyone is interested in and all, you know, the media is interested in from us is, you know, who's up and who's down and what are the odds.

BORYS: To be fair, the reason we're asking is because you guys can't sort yourselves out at the moment.

SHARMA: It's natural that the media should be interested in this. We are helping to create that storey and that's a problem. I agree.

BORYS: Has Angus outlined why he would be a better leader or why there needs to be a leadership change?

SHARMA: Well, I've only seen the same public appearances you have.

BORYS: Is there's anything going on behind the scenes?

SHARMA: No, I mean, I haven't seen, you know, obviously Angus Taylor remains a member of the front bench of the Shadow Ministry at the moment and…

BORYS: Surely he needs to step down from the shadow front.

SHARMA: Well, I think if you, if you do not support the leader or if you have an intention to challenge the leader, then yes, it's incumbent upon you to step down from the front bench. Now, I haven't heard any of this first hand. All I'm seeing is second hand reports and I know it's the way that media reporting works, but until such time, as someone I think has said publicly, I don't support the leader or I intend to challenge for the leadership that's the time when they should be stepping down.

BORYS: Ben Small says it's time for generational change with the leader. Do you agree with that?

SHARMA: Well, no, not necessarily. And I don't know if the two putative names we're talking about here, actually, they're the same generation, to be honest. But I think it is important, the broader point. I didn't see what Ben said, but I do believe we have some good, talented, capable individuals in our party room who could be given more responsibility and could fulfil those roles. Well. Oh, look, I don't want to name names.

BORYS: Oh, really? Come on, just give me one.

SHARMA: Look, it's, you know, every political party and, you know, movement needs to renew periodically, just like a football team or a cricket team or.

BORYS: And is that renewal now or stay status quo?

SHARMA: No, I think we need to. I do think there needs to be a bigger renewal. I think there's some good, talented people in our party room who could exercise some more responsibility, could fulfil that role. Well, and importantly, I mean, I'm very conscious that we have, as a political movement, a demographic challenge of sorts in terms of, you know, connecting with voters, basically fifty five and under. And so we do need people in positions of power who are fifty five and under to help communicate to those people, not just in a strict sense, but so, you know, voters need to be able to identify with the politicians they're supporting, their lived experience, their background, their profession, whatever it might be. And that's why, you know, a political party is more successful the more it reflects the composition of Australia as it stands today.

BORYS: Talking to your colleagues at the moment, what's the vibe? I know you're not going to give me absolute insights to everything, but give me the vibe. Is there, Is it frustration? Is it anger, despair?

SHARMA: I think a mix of all of those things. I think there's frustration that, you know, anyone who takes the role as Opposition Leader, famously known as the hardest job in politics, I think there's some truth to that. It's often quite difficult because of the challenges your colleagues present. You know, when we were last in opposition, I think we went through three Opposition Leaders in our first term in opposition. That's not that unusual, but I think there is some frustration that until we get this issue settled, it's hard for us to get traction on issues that matter. I think a lot of us are quite focused that we think there is a strong case to be made against this. Labor Government's record and there is a strong alternative to offer, but at the moment we are not making that case and we are not articulating that offer.

BORYS: I'll leave you there for now, Dave. I'll let you go, but in case you're getting messages of being told which way to vote, let me know if that happens. But Pete on a more serious note, today the AFP released a statement about two Chinese nationals. They've been charged by the Counter Foreign Interference Task Force. They're alleged to have been gathering information on a Canberra Buddhist Association. How concerned should we be about foreign interference?

KHALIL: Yeah, look, there is a serious issue and a challenge that we're facing. There is a significant amount of foreign interference, even espionage and things like that, which a lot of it goes under the surface and is not seen. It's dealt with by our security intelligence agencies. We passed a number of laws, some of those in when the Coalition was still in government, some of them when Labor took power to deal with foreign interference, to protect critical infrastructure and so on. So, there is a good set of laws that are there to deal with that, and that's why you're seeing some of these reports emerge. I will say this, it is difficult because this is happening right across a number of different groups in other countries, state actors, non-state actors and so on. But I have some confidence in the ability of our security agencies and intelligence agencies to be able to catch those efforts being made to undermine our democratic system and to interfere in our communities, particularly the diaspora communities. So, there's been a fair bit of work on that. You would have seen we actually expelled a number of Iranian diplomats who were involved in some of that previously. So, we're very much on top of that issue.

BORYS: Peter Khalil and Dave Sharma, thank you so much for your time on afternoon briefing.

KHALIL: Thank you.

ENDS