Radio Interview, ABC Hobart Drive

SUBJECTS: Defence Estate Audit, AI

KYLIE BAXTER [HOST]: An independent audit found that large parts of the Defence Department's 3 million hectare estate are just not needed anymore and many facilities have deteriorated beyond repair. And in Tasmania, 15 ADF sites have now been identified for sale. So, which ones are they? Let's find out. Peter Kahlil is the Federal Assistant Minister for Defence. Peter, thanks for joining me.

PETER KHALIL [ASSISTANT MINISTER]: G', day, Kylie.

BAXTER: So, 15 sites may go up for sale. Which ones have you identified for Tasmania?

KHALIL: There are a number of sites in Tassie that were identified. Derwent Barracks and Devonport Training Depot, Youngtown, Burnie Training Ship and the training ships at Devonport as well. And then a couple of smaller sites that were used obviously for training and parading and so on many of these sites. What we've really done in Tasmania is looking at consolidating the sites to retain a very strong presence in Tassie because of the importance of defence in Tassie. So, you know, we are looking at actually establishing a new, a new facility for cadets, a tri service cadet training hub up in the north, and also a new multi user depot that will again be up in the north and northwest probably, but that's what we're looking at. So, the idea there is to make sure that cadets and reservists that are being relocated are getting a better offering. And of course, if there are issues with respect to distance and so on, we are working with local communities as well to look at appropriate sites like community centres or schools that could work for very small numbers of cadets, for instance. So, there's been a fair bit of work put into this, Kylie, as far as the strategic planning. I recognise some of these sites are very important for Tasmanians. We've invested over $50 million in Anglesea, which is a very important base, which is being retained. And I've been working with many of the Tasmanian colleagues around the process going forward. It's not going to happen overnight, by the way. This will take some time. We really just announced the decision yesterday about which sites are divested, what happens to the sites and how they're sold and so on. That will take some time as we go through the process.

BAXTER. So, if a Derwent Barracks is sold, will staff from there be relocated to Anglesea Barracks or to possibly a new site?

KHALIL: Yeah look, it really depends on, with Derwent Barracks and all the other places, relocation is going to be predicated on the new depots that we establish, but also other sites that may be appropriate because of geographic distance and so on. But there will be some relocation to Anglesea, there'll be some relocation to existing bases in the consolidation, and there'll be relocation as well to those new facilities that are going to be established.

BAXTER: Is there a chance that cadets and reservists will actually have to travel longer distances, say into Hobart's Anglesea Barracks to train? I know you did allude to the fact there could be other options, but do you think it's going to have a bit of an impact on your ability to recruit, knowing all of this?

KHALIL: Yeah, well, two questions there that you asked, and they're very pertinent questions. We’ll commence those discussions and conversations in earnest with cadet units because some of them, because of geographic distance, as you alluded to, may require us to find a co-location in areas that might be appropriate for them because it's much closer as far as travel and distance. So, for example, a community venue or appropriate school so that small numbers of cadets don't have to go all the way to another base. They can continue to do their cadetships, if you like, in their local community. So, we're very cognisant of that and we're working on those options. We've already started those conversations and that planning has been underway for a while. But ultimately, you know, we made some tough decisions, Kylie, like the decisions to actually divest properties across Australia. 67 across Australia were done on the back of the audit because we are spending hundreds of millions of dollars, taxpayer dollars, on sites that are either underused or abandoned, and that is a criminal waste of taxpayer spending. Likewise, sites in Melbourne and Sydney, for example, that are beautiful sites, manicured lawns, grass courts, you know, rivalling Wimbledon, golf courses, sprawling golf courses. They don't have the operational and capability requirements that are necessary for our ADF, our serving men and women. Every dollar we save, every dollar we save from this process in the money that would have gone to maintenance, about $2 billion, is going to be reinvested back in our ADF, our men and women in uniform, for their kit, for the infrastructure that they need and for the base infrastructure.

BAXTER: You're listening to the voice of the Federal Assistant Minister for Defence, Peter Khalil, and we're talking about the defence assets which are due to be sold off, if you have just tuned into the conversation. So can you assure, Peter, that the Anglesea Barracks will remain a key part of the defence estate and then receive the necessary funding for upgrades.

KHALIL: Look, I can absolutely assure the community that Anglesea will remain a very important part of the base and estate infrastructure. In fact, not only that, we've actually invested over $50 million at Anglesea Barracks and also $20 million very recently to do upgrades at Anglesea. Senator Richard Dowling, who's a Tasmanian Senator, I think he cut the ribbon down there just late last year on a new call centre as well. So, it's creating jobs for Tasmanians and Anglesea is a very important part of our estate. When I was working on auctioning this work through the Audit we looked at whether these bases provide an operational or a capability that is essential to the work of contributing to defending our nation and protecting our nation. And Anglesea met those conditions.

BAXTER: Let's talk about Dowsing Point, for example. I mean, who's likely to buy these sites if and when they go up for sale?

KHALIL: Any one of these sites, as I said Kylie, we made a decision about which sites we would divest. The decisions around what happens to the site, who buys the site, we're not going to get ahead of ourselves because there's a long process before us in which the Finance Department, will engage with state governments, will engage with the private and commercial entities. Lots of other options may be available. They'll have experts in property disposal. That's why Finance will manage this process going forward. That'll be done within the next two years. And so we're not going to pre-empt any of that. Some sites may be good for housing, some could be parkland or nature reserves, some could be for other functions, you know, green space and open space. It really just depends on that process playing out. But there's an opportunity for the community to be involved in advocating for what's best for their community, including local MPs and Senators who I've talked to about what's best for Tassie.

BAXTER: So, I guess the question is, will money be the key focus? A lot of people are wondering that. Or are you actually going to prioritise the community needs like housing?

KHALIL: Yeah, look, the decisions around what is put on the sites will be made in a proper and appropriate process. Looking at all those factors, the community stakeholders, the local stakeholders, the engagement with State Government and local councils, having a good outcome for the community is paramount, people are going to be able to contribute to that process through the broader Finance Department process as we go forward. And look, I would think there'd be opportunities for housing. Certainly there is a need for social and affordable housing. That's certainly true. There'll be opportunities like that. It just depends on what's best for each site.

BAXTER: Now, the ABC understands the Burnie and Devonport training depots will be consolidated, as you've mentioned, into a new multi-user depot. Do we know where that depot is likely to be?

KHALIL: Look, we're scouting. Scouting is probably a pun, but we're looking at sites. Obviously Defence has been looking at what is appropriate site. It will be in the Northwest and we're talking now about the multi user depot that consolidates the reserves as well. That'll be in the northwest. The tri service cadet training facility will be near Launceston is my understanding. But again, as I said earlier, if there are needs around co locating more locally because of geographic issues, we're also looking at options like that, you know, whether it's leasing the appropriate properties to ensure that localised cadets can continue to do what they're doing without having to travel too far. Literally just be within their communities.

BAXTER: So, you don't feel like the army reservists from Tasmania or cadets would have to do any training on the mainland. I just want to play something that independent MP for Clark, Andrew Wilkie, said about that prospect on Mornings today.

ANDREW WILKIE [MP FOR CLARK]: It would be completely impractical to expect our reservists to have to travel to the mainland for live firing training. It's just impractical. As far as, you know, taking your weapons there and so on. So, that is an open question. I've already met, by the way. Well, I asked a question of the Defence Minister about Anglesea Barracks yesterday in Question Time. I've already had two separate conversations with the Assistant Defence Minister, Peter Khalil, and I'm putting these questions to him.

BAXTER: What are your thoughts on that, Peter?

KHALIL: Yeah, Andrew did ask me those questions. I've had a couple of good conversations with Andrew about those questions. They're very good questions. We're going through that consultation process to get the best possible options for field training and I'll be providing the answers to Andrew because he's come to me and in good faith we've had those conversations. So, I'm working on getting him some of those answers and maybe even come back on ABC with you, Kyle, and give you those answers as well.

BAXTER: That would be great. Now, you've said the sale of assets could bring in up to $1.8 billion, which can be redirected to other key military priorities. What are those priorities?

KHALIL: Well look, from our perspective, the National Defence Strategy clearly and explicitly stated the importance of investing in infrastructure on bases to make them fit for purpose for the strategic challenges that we're facing. So, you know, there's been a lot of are put into infrastructure, particularly in the bases up north of Australia in the Top End because of their operational sensitivities and operational tempo and intensity, particularly around the air bases across the north and northwest. But that doesn't preclude investment as well into southern bases. Like I just said, we've invested over $50 million in Anglesea. A lot of the southern hubs are becoming transport and logistics hubs. They play a really important role. So, we're investing in those upgrades as well and we're making sure that the estate is fit for purpose. And I think it's unacceptable to me when I became Assistant Minister to see that we were spending millions a year maintaining sites that were not used, were literally abandoned buildings. It was a criminal waste of taxpayer dollars. So, that money is going to be reinvested in infrastructure that's needed to allow our men and women in uniform to do their jobs.

BAXTER: And just finally, are there other factors behind the sell off? For instance, are AI combat technologies, things like drone warfare becoming more of a priority than ground forces?

KHALIL: That's a really interesting question. Look, there's a lot of discussion about AI and its progress within there are ethical questions around how we use AI. In fact, we have some very important guardrails and regular regulations internally about that always should be a human in the chain of command. For example, as an example of that, yes, drone technology is advancing and all of that is clear. But the army is also advancing in it’s in the way that it does its business and its work and we are providing the support for the services to meet that technological advance. The opportunities that come from that, I don't think it's an either or. To be honest, Kylie, it's not like, you know, that technology is taking away from certain things. Certainly we're not. We don't have the old rifles anymore. Things move on. But we're kidding up our men and women in uniform with the assets that they need to do their job really effectively and that includes that technological advancement.

BAXTER: I'm curious, do you feel an added pressure in your role as the Federal Assistant Minister for Defence? You know, given the state of international politics and where things are at right now, is it an added pressure?

KHALIL: This is an important role, Kylie. I'm not going to lie about that. It is a great privilege to be Assistant Minister in the government, particularly in the Defence portfolio, to protect and defend Australia's way of life and our interests. And this has been a once in a generation reform. It hasn't been done. It's been just too difficult to do. But we have not the luxury to sit on this anymore. The amount of money that was being spent and wasted and making sure that that estate was fit for purpose was a really important task. And I spent eight months visiting dozens and dozens of sites and really got to know the work that was being done by our men and women in uniform on these sites. And I'm very, very cognisant and very passionate about making sure that we don't waste money, but we also invest it in the people that need it and they're the who've made the decision to serve our country and do so to actually protect our country as well.

BAXTER: Good to hear your views. Thank you for joining me on the Drive program today.

KHALIL: Thanks, Kylie.