Radio Interview, ABC Newcastle Drive

SUBJECTS: PFAS contamination at defence bases, Williamtown Working Group

JENNY MARCHANT [HOST]: So ten years on from the Williamtown PFAS contamination becoming known, a Williamtown Working Group has been established. This is to provide local insights to the management of the issue there. This group's made up of community representatives as well as Port Stephens Council staff, the State and Federal MPs for that area as well as Mayor of Port Stephens. So what kind of a difference can this group make? Well, Peter Khalil is the Assistant Minister for Defence. I spoke to him earlier today and started by asking him what this working group will do. 

PETER KHALIL [ASSISTANT MINISTER]: Well, it's got a very important role. You touched on or you alluded on to the local element of knowledge, and the understanding that local community members have ‑ Local Government, the State Government MP, also First Nations people represented the Worimi people are represented on this Committee, their ability to be able to encapsulate some of the key issues that they're facing as a community or have been facing as a community, and work that up into a national coordinating body, which I've also established with State Ministers as well and representatives from all of the necessary department at the Commonwealth and State level, so that there's a synchronised approach to the national responses on an ongoing basis, you know, really reaching into, I guess, the local working group's knowledge and understanding of the local issues and the detail, but also informing the national response, because obviously some of issues apply right across the continent, and this is a pilot working group, I'm hoping a template, Williamtown's a template, if you like, to be able to establish working groups in other parts of Australia, like Tindal and other bases where they're facing similar problems. 

MARCHANT: We are, as I said, ten years on from becoming aware of this issue in Williamtown. What can this group tell you that you don't already know? 

KHALIL: Yeah, that's a good question. I think there's been a lot of work done in remediation by Defence, particularly in the last couple of years, in fact we've spent almost a billion dollars on remediation. So that's aimed at containing the PFAS from spreading outside of Defence bases, addressing PFAS that goes on to adjoining properties, we've spent about $800 million on remediation, we've spent 128 million just at Williamtown on remediation as well, so we're about 80 million on building water treatment plants, which have actually processed around 5.9 billion litres of water, treated the water, as well as 190,000 tonnes of soil. So there's technologies that are there that can actually address some of the contamination. But the localised detail on issues, for example, the drainage issues that pertain to Williamtown are really important, the local knowledge that's there, it's important for them to do that work so they can bring that up. There's a lot of knowledge that's been there for a while. 

There's no… I'm going to use a Victorian kind of saying now, a sporting one, no one can handball this away anymore because you've got local, state and Federal Government. When I was sworn in, Jenny, in July, Meryl Swanson was the first person on the phone to me when she realised I had responsibility for PFAS as the new Minister. I moved very quickly to establish the National Coordinating Body, I met with Penny Sharpe, the New South Wales State Minister, put the nominations in place for expressions of interest for the working group for Williamtown, and they're going to be meeting on Thursday. So it is about their ability to actually inform what we do going forward for Williamtown, but also across the country. 

MARCHANT: This group though was initially announced December of last year, so we're talking twelve or so months on since the announcement to have the group together and meeting. Why has it taken so long? 

KHALIL: Yeah, there was an election in that period, and obviously I was elected in May, I was sworn in as the new Minister in July, and in August I established the National Coordinating Body, met with the Ministers, and in October we had the nomination to open for this ‑ expressions of interest for this working group. So I moved as quickly as I could to take action, because when I met with the community members, when I came to visit in September, or earlier than that, I think it was August, there was a real sense of urgency about we need to take actions, we need to do things, and so ‑‑ 

MARCHANT: Announced in December though, was there a feeling that the election, the outcome of the election might change whether or not this working group goes ahead? Just trying to understand how the election affects the timing of that? 

KHALIL: Oh, look, I think the honest answer to that, and very straightforward, is that as soon as you go into a caretaker period obviously things get kind of in a caretaker mode, but as soon as I knew that I had responsibility for this issue, I moved with some alacrity, or degree of alacrity, if you want to call it that, and as I said, Meryl Swanson, who's the local MP, she was amazing, she's been a great advocate for the community, and you know, dealing with Defence for many years, she was right on to me, and I responded, and I've made it a real priority for the community, and I met the community members. I understand the frustration, the concern that they have had for many, many years. They need action and the working group model is one that was recommended by Independent Review as the best model to go forward, to be able to inform and synchronise that national response. 

MARCHANT: Ten years on though from the community, with a lot of heartache, certainly in that time, I'm sure you can understand that frustration. Why are we, 10 years on, still dealing with this and still having community members who feel that they can't live their lives the way they want on their properties? 

KHALIL: The whole world's dealing with it. I mean PFAS is called "the forever chemical". The company responsible for this, they're in multiple jurisdictions; in the EU, North America, Canada, Australia, obviously many other places around the world. The whole world is dealing with this problem. What's interesting to me, I mean obviously as a Defence Minister I'd say this, but I can tell the listeners that Defence is well ahead of the curve in remediating the problem. In fact Defence, unlike many other jurisdictions around the world, or even across Australia, has spent over a billion dollars in remediation, we've built hundreds of water tanks, rain water tanks for people, we've provided water, we've connected local communities to the town water supplies, we've tried to treat the water at the source with water treatment plants, we've, as I said earlier, you know, gone through and dealt with 100,000 tonnes of soil, contaminated soil to treat that soil, the technologies exist for that, and we're continuing to do that work, but more work needs to be done. This is an ongoing issue and an ongoing effort that is required, and we are committed to it. Defence is doing it across its estate, and Williamtown, as I said, is a really important community. So we are working with the working group going forward. 

MARCHANT: So is there a point, do you think, in the years ahead where the people living in that zone will be back to as they were if this hadn't happened? Can you see a time where that will be possible for people living around Williamtown and Salt Ash? 

KHALIL: Well, I don't know have a crystal ball, but I think what I can say is that there's a really significant commitment by myself as a Minister, but also the Government, particularly in the last couple of years, the Albanese Government has been very focused on taking actions on PFAS, actual remediation, so whether it's the rain water tanks, whether it's the water treatment plants, whether it's the soil contamination remediation, all of these things have been done, but we're going even more granular with these working groups to really address some of the key issues that particular communities face. 

MARCHANT: Drainage and so on. 

KHALIL: Whether it's drainage or anything else, or zoning, or whatever it might be. 

MARCHANT: So what happens next then in terms of remediation? Are there new technologies or new methods on the horizon that might provide some help in Williamtown? 

KHALIL: There is an evolution of technology. I mean even we've seen in the last couple of years technologies evolve so that, you know, you can treat water more effectively, or you can remove the contamination from the soil. I mean the main focus has been, from Defence's perspective, is to contain PFAS from spreading outside of the bases so to contain them to the bases and then try and treat the contaminated soil on the bases, or the water itself on the bases, so that that reduces the spread, or the plume being spread, they call it a "plume". So there's been a big focus on that in order to protect communities around. But where communities have been affected, I mean there has been I think about over $400 million in claims that have been paid out to support those communities in various actions, and $100 billion in remediation. 

MARCHANT: Are there new methods, new technologies that we can expect to have come online soon that might stem the flow and deal with the contamination that's already there? 

KHALIL: Well, to say, the efforts being made now in remediation are stemming the flow, that's the purpose of those efforts, and the technology does evolve, that there are other technologies, there are more technologies being looked at, there's a lot of R&D happening in the US, and with Australia as well, there's working groups between Australia's Defence Department and other departments across the globe around this, and how to deal with this. So all those technologies we'll have access to going forward. 

MARCHANT: With me on ABC Newcastle is the Assistant Minister for Defence, Peter Khalil. The health advice that we hear is that health effects of PFAS appear to be small, yet some experts say we need to adopt stronger standards as some other countries have. Do we need to know more about the effects of PFAS for people living in contaminated areas? 

KHALIL: I absolutely want to see the the medical evidence around impacts of PFAS on community members. That is a global issue, there's a lot of research being done but what that is ‑ I mean you pointed out that there's ‑ it's not clear. We know, for example, with National Health and Medical Research Council, they've undertaken an independent review of the drinking water guidelines, they're updated pretty regularly, they're quite important, but we've done a lot of monitoring around drinking water, we've provided bottled water or rain water tanks and other ways of ameliorating some of the issues, and the State and Territory environmental protection agencies are actually conducting a work into those revised water guidelines, currently The Australian Water Guidelines, and they'll be reporting to their governments, I think next month, and I'm very, very keen to have that briefed up to the National Coordinating Body, which is made up of State Government representatives as well. 

MARCHANT: So you would like to know more information as it comes to hand; it's obviously an evolving area of research?  

KHALIL: Absolutely, yeah. 

MARCHANT: So if the community working group here Williamtown were to ask for more health studies, is that something that could come of this? 

KHALIL: Well, the Williamtown Working Group has a lot of work ahead of it. They can be diving deep into many different areas, whether it's remediation, technologies, drainage, zoning issues, medical research, that's up to them, and I think there will be a coordinated effort. They will synchronise that up into the National Coordinating Body which will help inform our decisions at a national level to make sure that we're cognisant of the localised issues. I would like to see them really provide that information about what pertains to the community members in Williamtown and what needs to be done there for them to do that work. 

MARCHANT: Is there funding, if they point out, you know, as you've said, drainage issues, or a want for health studies, for instance, is there funding there to make those things happen? 

KHALIL: I think funding will be a discussion about what recommendations are being made, what comes through the National Coordinating Body, where we need to actually address, I mean when we talk about funding we already have ‑ Defence has allocated an amount of money that we're spending on remediation. I mentioned that, you know, hundreds of millions of dollars already spent, almost over a billion dollars, but $128 million has been spent for Williamtown, so…

MARCHANT: But is there more for what this community...

KHALIL: Well, there is allocated funding for PFAS remediation for Defence, so that can be allocated depending upon the flow‑through of information and recommendations, that has to be assessed at the time, frankly, between Federal and State Government and so on. 

MARCHANT: Understood. Minister, thank you very much for your time. 

KHALIL: Thank you.