Television Interview, ABC Briefing

SUBJECTS: Inflation, Housing, Nuclear Energy, Priya’s law

PATRICIA KARVELAS [HOST]: I want to bring in my political panel now. Peter Khalil is the Assistant Defence Minister. Jane Hume is Liberal Senator for Victoria. Welcome to both of you. I have to start on inflation. There was a, you know, very concerted strategy from the Coalition today to focus on inflation. The Government's argument, though is that it is significantly lower than when the Morrison Government was in power, and also that it's not always a sort of even trajectory. Why do you reject that?  

JANE HUME [VIC SENATOR]: Well, in fact, inflation and the cost‑of‑living crisis is now far from over, and this was a problem of a Labor Government's making. In fact it was only June ‑ it was only June this year that Jim Chalmers said that inflation was down in a sustainable way; it clearly is not, it's gone back up again, and it's being driven largely by energy prices, which as we know, were also a promise of the Labor Government that they were going to bring energy prices down. Not only have they failed, but they've gone up by 9 per cent in the last quarter, 8 per cent in the quarter before that, and Australians are paying the price, whether it be businesses, like Tomago, or whether it be Australian households. 

KARVELAS: Well, Peter Khalil, I mean, they're not figures that the Government would be welcoming. 

PETER KHALIL [ASSISTANT MINISTER]: Well, I'm not going to have a go at you, Jane, actually, there has been quite a bit of hyperbole around here today, frankly, and you know, the global economy is uncertain, and that has impact on inflation. In fact, the inflation rate is rising in every advanced economy, except for the UK, where it's flat, and you know, we've had policies in place around energy rebates, around cheaper childcare, Commonwealth Rent Assistance, all directly helping reduce inflation from the 6 per cent which it was under the Coalition. It is now at I think the median…

KARVELAS: Sure, but economists say this is not what they expected, this is clearly higher than anyone expected, that's like ‑ that's a fail, isn't it? How else do you see it? 

KHALIL: I mean, you're looking at it being in the frame where we want it to be between 2.5, I think 2.5 and 3, it's at 2.8 on these figures for the month. So there's been a lot of work put into reducing inflation from the highs that it was when we took over government, when it was north of 6 per cent, and there has been success in reducing inflation through the policies the Treasurer's put in place and the Government's put in place to actually help people with cost-of-living and at the same time not add to inflation, and I think that has been successful. 

KARVELAS: Was the Government too keen to, you know, declare victory on inflation, given what we've just seen?  

KHALIL: Look, there is a real lot of work that has to be done to deal with the structural drivers of inflation and settle that underlying inflation and make sure that returns to the RBA's target band. That's what we've been doing; we've been putting that in place. We haven't been spending in the way that the Coalition spent when they were in power which led to…

HUME: Oh, hang on your spending is four times higher than the growth of the economy…

KHALIL: Which led to an inflation rate with a 6 in front of it. I mean, the fact is you can't change those numbers, Jane. 

HUME: All right, Peter I let you get away with it three times. I let you get away with it… 

KHALIL: As you say, it's 6 per cent when they were in power, and it's now 2.8. 

HUME: Actually, it was a record under a Labor Government, and you know full well that it was that last quarter of a Coalition Government, and that was after Russia invaded the Ukraine and the oil price went up. You know that. So that's just a falsehood. In fact, it was pushed up higher and higher under a Labor Government, and it was both two ‑‑ 

KHALIL: Well, that's not true. 

HUME: Reserve Bank Governors that said that Labor's spending was part of the cause of inflation staying higher for longer, and Australians have been paying a price, whether it be through their energy bills, whether it be through their grocery bills, whether it be through increased rents and unaffordable housing. 

KARVELAS: Sure, so, there's no doubt that people are, you know, frustrated by stubborn inflation, but Jane, what is the solution, like what would you do? 

HUME: Well, the first step is to stop Labor's spending spree because we know that that…

KARVELAS: Oh, but that's a broad statement. 

HUME: It absolutely is. 

KARVELAS: Specifically, what would you stop funding? 

HUME: Well, this is the most important thing that Labor can do right now, is stop this irrational and reckless spending that continues on putting pressure on the budget, putting pressure on inflation…

KARVELAS: But specifically, can you give me two things that you'd just, you know, slash that you think would have a material impact on inflation? 

HUME: Yeah, absolutely, I can, absolutely, I can. In fact, there are so many off balance sheet funds now, and the IMF and the OECD have both pointed to those funds and said that those funds are inflationary. Now they ballooned under Labor, they are still existing, and the Housing Australia Future Fund is a very good example, about $10 billion borrowed in the taxpayers' name, and what's it produced? Nothing. 

KARVELAS: Right of reply? 

KHALIL: I mean, if you're going to bring in the Housing Australia Future Fund, it is really rich, because we're delivering 55,000 social and affordable homes in a decade in power ‑ wait for it ‑ you delivered 373. Effectively, you did next to nothing on social and affordable housing, and when we came into power and put up housing policies, like the HAFF and other housing policies and legislation, you teamed up with the Greens to block it and delay it for a further year and a bit. So, I don't think you can be speaking from any place of credibility when it comes to housing policy. Your Government did next to zero. 

HUME: Except for the fact that under a Coalition Government, 200,000 houses a year were built, on average, over nine years. And it's around 170,000 a year. 

KARVELAS: Let's park this and just talk about net zero, nuclear, you've got your Private Members Bill. Scott Morrison, who actually was responsible for signing this country up to net zero by 2050, was bipartisan. Your party's now reviewing it. He's actually spoken to The Australian, and he's declared that net zero at any cost on any rigid timeframe is not policy, it's just ideology. What's your response to his intervention? 

HUME: I think that you'd be hard‑pressed to find an Australian that says we should hit net zero at any cost, and…

KARVELAS: But he says it's not policy, it's ideology. I mean, really? 

HUME: Well, it is ideology if you're not going to have a technology-neutral approach to getting emissions down. But we want…

KARVELAS: Yeah, but you believe in net zero by 2050?  

HUME: I do, I absolutely do, I believe that we should get emissions down, but I don't believe that we should only do it with a renewables-only approach, because, A, that's not going to get us there, and every policy, you know, every trajectory of emissions and the renewables roll out points to that. 

KARVELAS: But even if your bill was to be successful, and there's no evidence that it will be…

HUME: It will bide its time. 

KHALIL: I can announce today that I'm not voting for her bill. 

KARVELAS: I'm pretty sure of that, but you know, I can do some basic maths, and I just don't think it's likely, but I get your point. You're not going to get nuclear in the system built, and you know, there's not an economic proposition for it. 

HUME: But if you really want to get emissions down, if you're genuine about it why would you not have a technology-neutral approach to get emissions down?  

KARVELAS: Yeah, but it has to work. 

KARVELAS: But it's not going to radically enter the system and reduce prices, you know that. 

HUME: But why would not say, whatever works, let's let the market decide…  

KARVELAS: Do you concede that it won't make a material difference in any time?

HUME: It certainly won't under a Labor Government because what they wanted do is essentially blanket the country with renewable energy, and that is not going to bring emissions down by 2050, by 2035, even by 2030 you haven't ‑ you're not going to hit your targets, and moreover, it's costing Australians a fortune because electricity prices are going up. There is no country that has taken a renewables-only approach that is either going to hit its emissions target or that hasn't seen energy prices rise. 

KARVELAS: I don't know if it's a renewables-only approach based on facts but energy prices have been through the roof under this Government, and that's a problem. 

KHALIL: I don't know, I have some suspicions about why Jane's putting up a Private Members Bill, but the people of Australia categorically rejected the Coalition's plan for a $600 billion taxpayer funded nuclear power plant…

HUME: You know it didn't cost that much, and it was costed out…

KHALIL: Well $500 billion, half a trillion, whatever it was ‑‑ 

HUME: It was cheaper than your plan. 

KHALIL: I've literally had seconds to speak…

HUME: I know, but you lied. 

KHALIL: Let me finish. It was categorically rejected, whether it's $600 billion, $500 billion or $400 billion, whatever the cost was, which would have come online in 2040, so the whole intent that you have to reduce emissions, you know, wouldn't have happened for another 20 years based on a nuclear power plant at taxpayer dollars. We have the best renewable resources in the world. We want people investing in that, we are investing in that. Secondly, there's no nuclear power industry globally that doesn't have massive government subsidies, and when we talk about that, you look at, you know, even ‑ I know you've talked about SMRs and so on, Jane, let's touch on those, there's only two operating in the world, one in China, one in Russia, none operating commercially, viably in any part of the western world, Argentina tried to build one in 2014, they canned the whole project by 2024, and so I think what you're trying to do must be political in the sense that you want to keep the Nats on board, or you, I think, Jane, do believe that we need to reduce emissions ‑‑ 

HUME: I do. 

KHALIL: I know you do, but…

HUME: I want to keep the lights on, and I want to keep…

KHALIL: But right‑wing populist policies are not the answer. 

KARVELAS: Okay, all right. 

KHALIL: Right‑wing populist policies are not the answer. 

HUME: Seriously, are you saying that nuclear is a right‑wing policy, because every country around the world has adopted nuclear, the 30 biggest countries in the world have adopted nuclear and said that they were going to triple their nuclear output. 

KHALIL: I don't think you've thought it through, Jane. 

KARVELAS: Okay. 

HUME: It's not a right‑wing policy. 

KHALIL: You haven't thought it through. 

HUME: It's a technology-agnostic policy. 

KHALIL: First of all, if the Coalition wants to spend hundreds of billions of dollars, whatever that final cost is, to build a power plant, it's not economically viable. 

KARVELAS: Okay. 

KHALIL: Secondly, having fought through that, we have to set up a regulator, we have to set up…

HUME: We have them, they're there. 

KHALIL: The countries that you're talking about have had this going on for decades. 

KARVELAS: Can I say, we've had enough of this conversation ‑‑

HUME: Okay. 

KHALIL: Particularly that one? 

KARVELAS: I've had this conversation so many times, I'm just going to park it for a minute. 

KHALIL: Is it deja vu? 

KARVELAS: It is a little bit, so is my job. Let me ask you this, Jane Hume. Some of your colleagues, Andrew Hastie, there's a couple of others, have spoken in the Federation Chamber. For those who don't know, it's the other chamber that doesn't often get noticed, but we watch, and they've spoken about this bill that the Government has proposed, which is about stillbirths and paid parental leave, basically suggesting that it incentivises abortion, and it's misinformation, it's not what the bill does. Mark Butler rebuked them earlier. Do you think they should be very careful about how they talk about this? 

HUME: I haven't heard their contributions. I really know very little about this bill. It hasn't made its way to the Senate. When it does, though, I do think it's one of those conversations that we need to be very cautious about, very careful about. A woman's right to choose is profoundly important and should always be maintained. We want to make sure that we also treat those families that have experienced stillbirths as respectfully as possible. It is an extraordinarily traumatic thing for any family to go through. I don't think we need to turn this one into a political football. 

KARVELAS: No, and before the last election, Peter Dutton actually told your party, you remember very well, not to bring in issues like abortion…

HUME: It's not a political issue, though. 

KARVELAS: No, but his view was also that this was not mainstream stuff that people ‑ people did not ‑ you know, we saw the consequences in Queensland when abortion entered the state campaign. Are you worried about people politicising this issue? 

HUME: I do think that when we're in the middle of a cost‑of‑living crisis that continues, when we haven't got enough houses for Australians to live in, when our energy prices are going through the roof and when our geopolitical situation is fragile at best, there are more important things to be talking about right now. 

KARVELAS: I'm going to park it and not give you a right of reply. You look desperate for one, but Mark Butler has spoken about this on the show. I'll give you one sentence. 

KHALIL: Well, I hope there's bipartisanship on this, because as it's known, the Baby Priya Bill is all about making sure to change the laws so that if parents experience the unthinkable, either still birth or the death of a child, that they don't have their parental leave cancelled by employers, and that they're able to take that leave and grieve, and have the space to grieve during that period of time, and it should not be politicised, and it shouldn't become something that is a political football. The courage of those parents, Priya's parents, to push this has been really remarkable, and will leave a lasting legacy for so many families. 

KARVELAS: Okay. 

HUME: My understanding is that when this bill hits the Senate, the Coalition will be supporting it in a bipartisan way. 

KHALIL: That's great. Thanks, Jane. 

KARVELAS: All right. That's just some clarity. Thank you. All right. We're out of time, thank you.

ENDS