Television interview, Sky News

SUBJECTS: Australia to Recognise Palestinian State, Middle East Conflict, AALD, Defence Spending

TOM CONNELL [HOST]: Joining me live now is Assistant Defence Minister, Peter Khalil. Thank you for your time. A bit of confusion around which statement has come out, but clearly at some level what Australia is saying it will do on Palestinian statehood is being welcomed by Hamas. Does that make you uncomfortable at all?

PETER KHALIL [ASSISTANT MINISTER]: Well, a couple of points on this, Tom. First of all, as the PM said, the media, nor the opposition, frankly, or anyone else should be gullible enough to repeat, promote or magnify what is essentially Hamas propaganda and they've been very good at doing this over the period of time. The facts on the ground are this and the international community is putting that pressure on, as you say, to get to the first important sticking point and that is to get a release of the 20 hostages and, and a ceasefire in place. There is a strong commitment from the international community right across the board, including Australia, to build on that momentum for a two state solution, including recognising Palestine. But also working on the economic reconstruction of the of Gaza and the political and security elements that are required once that ceasefire is in place. As you start to build up a Palestinian state, there's a lot of work to do tomorrow. I know the media is really interested in going around in circles about playing around with this propaganda. But let's be clear about what's needed, we want an end to the suffering, we want an end to the loss of innocent life. We want to see a ceasefire, we want to see a return of the hostages. The international community, including Australia, is working diligently on this, including the Arab states such as Egypt.

CONNELL: So, the Australian Government and Anthony Albanese spoke about this condition of recognising Palestinian statehood, that neither Hamas nor another militant group could be in charge in Gaza. If after the ceasefire and whatever else plays out, Hamas is still in charge or another militant group, what does Australia do then? Does it retract its recognition?

KHALIL: Well, let's be clear about this. The Australian Government, the Prime Minister have been very clear, as has the UK Prime Minister Starmer, the French President. I could go on. Include the Egyptians, the Emiratis. They have said very clearly, including through the Arab League, a number of Arab states, Egypt, Qatar, Saudi Arabia, that there is no place for Hamas in a future Palestinian state. That is clear. And the entire international community is, I think, on the same page on that as you seek to build a new Palestinian state. Obviously, there's been a lot of discussion with the Palestinian Authority, the reforms necessary for them to establish what would be effectively a transitional government, a technocratic government. There are a number of Palestinians who have explicitly shown a great deal of skill in that space. Salam Fayyad, who's a former Prime Minister. There are many who can step into the breach and start to do the work, the hard work on the ground to build up towards a Palestinian state and to eventual elections that will not include Hamas. There is no place for Hamas in that new Palestinian state and in that transition. That is clear to everyone. And it's probably clear to Hamas as well, which is probably why they are not releasing the hostages as well. They’re holding onto these hostages for an internal period of time. We need to see a ceasefire.

CONNELL: Yes. My question is what, what does this condition mean that Australia placed on recognising Palestinian statehood? Because whatever emerges out of this, if it's perhaps it could be infiltrated by Hamas, perhaps it is still militant in some way. So, if that happens, does Australia then retract its recognition?

KHALIL: Well, two points, One on recognition and one on Hamas's involvement in the Gaza Strip. The first, recognition, is one part of the elements necessary to push the momentum towards a two state solution which has evaded the international community and the people in the Middle East for decades. There have been multiple wars across the century, the past century in that area, my family has been involved with that. My father, my grandfather were in the Egyptian Army in multiple wars throughout the 20th century. Peace has evaded the people there. Recognition is part of the elements necessary to push the momentum towards a two state solution. Ceasefire, return of the hostages. Now, when it comes to Hamas's involvement, which you're pointing out, Hamas have been militarily decimated in Gaza. There is no particular reason, no military reason for the IDF to remain in Gaza. That has been stated clearly and explicitly by many in the Israeli, including I think from former generals and current generals. Hamas now has been decimated. They pose no strategic risk to Israel. So, what we're looking at now is getting the momentum forward towards that two state solution, including getting the ceasefire worked out, which is being worked on by Egypt and Qatar and the US, through the envoy for the President. Releasing the hostages and moving to the transition towards the building blocks of setting up a two state solution is key. And there is a lot of work to be done, it's going to be a challenge. But there's enormous goodwill amongst the international community to provide that support.

CONNELL: But my question remains there was a conditional recognition of Palestine. If one of the key conditions, Hamas or any other element, that there is still a militant group in charge of Gaza, do we retract our recognition?

KHALIL: Well, again, you're being quite simplistic. Sorry, no offence to you, Tom. This is a complex issue.

CONNELL: Okay, we'll explain it to you another way. I know it's complex, but there's a condition put on this.

KHALIL: There are elements. Well, let me..

CONNELL: There was a condition placed on this parts of Gaza. So, let me put it another way, because you say it's too simplistic. You explained to me how I should ask it, because there was a condition placed, let’s be really, really, really clear. So, what does it mean?

KHALIL: All right, let me be really clear to you. This is something that is the position of the Arab states, the international community, largely speaking. Even President Trump has said he's agnostic towards recognition at the some point in time. I think he made that statement the other day. What we're talking about is control, as you say, you're talking about whether Hamas retains some control. Different parts of Gaza are not controlled by Hamas, obviously, with the IDF in there. Other parts are not controlled by Hamas either. They have been decimated. Once we've got a ceasefire in place and once we've got the return of the hostages, the conditions and the reality on the ground are going to be about setting up the necessary security and economic reconstruction and political transition, which will not involve Hamas. When the international community makes those contributions around rebuilding that area, around making sure the Palestinian Authority is set up as a transitional government, Hamas is not going to be involved in that. This is much higher than my pay grade when we're talking about Prime Ministers and Presidents working through these plans, Hamas will not be involved. You've heard that statement very clearly made by the Arab League, by Qatar, Egypt and Saudi Arabia, by France, by the UK, by Canada, by Australia. There is a unity ticket on this across the international community. Hamas will not be involved in the transition. And so that is a really important point to make. I think the building blocks for a Palestinian state have to be predicated on.

CONNELL: A transition towards the PA and some element of whatever body's in charge has an element of militarism. I heard it was a condition. Maybe it's not. Anyway, I've had a go at that. You've had your response. Fair enough. Let me ask you about the Israel side of things, because you said before, Israel shouldn't be in there. There's no militant element. Do you have a view now that the Netanyahu Government is a big part of why there isn't a ceasefire and that could be expanded as well to the West Bank settlements and what's happening there? Are they increasingly a part of this?

KHALIL: I would hope the Israeli Government negotiates in good faith to get that ceasefire. Because I think everyone in Israel, everyone in Palestine, everyone across the international community want to see the end to this horrible suffering, the loss of innocent life, the malnutrition, the starvation. We want unimpeded access for humanitarian aid to go into the people that are suffering and that need it. So, I would hope that they reach that. And, you know, if you look at Israeli domestic politics, there's around 75 per cent of the population that want this ceasefire in place now and want to end to this war, and that includes much of the national security establishment as well. So, I would hope that would be the case. You know, that is a domestic issue that you asked me about of another country, but the polling and the opinion there is pretty clear cut.

CONNELL: Ok, let me move on to another issue. I know you're keen to talk about the Australia US Defence Dialogue. Some US officials were blocked from attending this. Is there a bit of a trust issue between the Trump administration and. And the Australian government at the moment?

KHALIL: I'm not sure what you're referring to. We've had the Australian American Leadership Dialogue hosted in Adelaide for the first time. I'm here in sunny Adelaide, as you can see behind me. As the Premier says, this is a defence state. Amazing industrial base here for defence and a big part of our defence history. South Australia and integral and critical to the build around the Virginia class submarine maintenance, but also the build around the new AUKUS submarines. We’ve got a delegation of U.S Congressmen and Senators here. Senator Coons is leading the delegation, Republicans like Trent Kelly, Democrats like Joe Courtney, different sides of the aisle, Tom, they disagree on pretty much everything except the fact that they support the wonderful relationship and alliance they have with Australia and their support for AUKUS.

CONNELL: Anyone saying you need to spend a bit? Anyone saying you need to spend a bit more money?

KHALIL: Well, let me be really clear. The Albanese Government has made the largest increase in defence spending in peacetime since World War II. Historians might want to correct me, but we have increased defence spending over the next couple of years in the forward estimates, about 58 billion over the decade. That is the largest increase in defence spending in history. World War II in peacetime and that.

CONNELL: Trump administration knew that. So, that's the question.

KHALIL: Yeah. Ok. Well, let me be really clear about Australia and its sovereignty and our defence spending. As the Prime Minister has rightly said, as the Deputy Prime Minister has rightly said, we will make decisions about our defence spending based on the capability that we need through the proper processes of our IIP and our National Defence Strategy processes that lead into our Budget. We make those assessments on the capabilities needed to meet the challenges that we face. That may include spending on various capabilities. In fact, Pat Conroy, the Minister, one of the Defence Ministers, made an announcement about that in South Australia today. There will be decisions made on that, and that is a decision that we make as a government.

CONNELL: Yeah and I know that was his response, particularly around someone saying, just to put a percent on it, increase it to 3%. My question was more about overall increased spending. But we've got to leave it there. I don't want you to get too…

KHALIL: Ah you’re tied up with percentages, Tom.

CONNELL: Okay, I didn't say percentages.

KHALIL: I didn't want you to get too tied up with percentages.

CONNELL: Not where I went. I understand that when you talk about it - if you just to put a percent on it, in my view, money's…

KHALIL: I was actually referring to the Brisbane Lions percentage, which has you at fifth. So, there you go.

CONNELL: We've got a draw. So, that helps us. No need for a percentage. Peter Khalil talk again soon.