Radio Interview, ABC Perth

SUBJECTS: AUKUS Deal; Naval capability; Defence infrastructure.

NADIA MITSOPOULOS, HOST: Yes, welcome back to the show. And we are live at the Rockingham Bowls Club. We have a full house here, and we are now, for the next hour, putting the spotlight on the massive AUKUS defence pact. So, what is it in A nutshell? A 30-year, $368 billion deal. Australia will buy three second-hand nuclear-powered submarines from the US, and then five new Australian ones will be made. They will also be nuclear-powered, and Garden Island here in Rockingham will be their home port. Now, to help build skills and operational capability that WA will need, the US and UK will rotate their nuclear-powered submarines through Garden Island in what is called Submarine Rotation Force West, and then up the road in Henderson, a defence precinct will be established to support a maintenance hub and naval shipbuilding. Now, this forum today isn't about whether AUKUS should go ahead. That ship has sailed. It is a done deal. Today is about understanding what is in it for us, what is in it for you, the people of Rockingham and surrounding areas. Where are the workers going to live? What about all the infrastructure that's needed? There is legitimate concerns that this will put a target on our back. There are a lot of questions, and I'm hoping our panel can answer them for us. Please make welcome this morning all levels of government represented. Matt Keogh, Federal Minister for Defence Personnel and Veterans' Affairs. We have Amber Jade Sanderson, who's the WA Minister assisting the Minister for Defence Industries. Welcome to Warwick Carter. He directs the Perth Southwest Metropolitan Alliance, which represents local councils in the area. Please make them welcome. Now, if you've got a question we've been asking you all morning, just write it on a card. No preambles, please. We do want to get through as many questions as we can, and I do notice a lot of your questions are mine. So, we'll just ask that you get straight to the point. If you have one, just put your hand up, and we'll get a microphone to you, but write it down on a card. It is seven minutes past 10. Matt Keogh, let's start with you. Why does Australia need AUKUS?

MATT KEOGH, MINISTER FOR VETERANS’ AFFAIRS AND DEFENCE PERSONNEL: So, I think we've got to start from the very beginning, which is that submarine capability is one of the most important capabilities you can have in the Defence Force because it creates the biggest question mark in a potential adversary because you don't know where that submarine is or submarines are, and it really creates a different dynamic in terms of where someone may be trying to threaten you. So, they're an incredibly important capability. That's why countries around the world need to have them. What you see with Australia in particular, given our geography and using conventionally powered submarines, they spend a lot of time actually on the surface of the water and that puts them at greater risk. And so having a capability that is nuclear-propelled means that they can spend the time that they are away underwater safer, able to do their work at greater speed as well, and to go further away when they need to be able to do that, depending on what tasking they are performing. So, it is a dramatic uplift in our defence capability, which is all about keeping Australians safer because of the question mark it puts in the mind of a potential adversary.

MITSOPOULOS: And when you talk about potential adversaries, could we really one day be in a situation that one of WA's biggest trading partners, China, could actually attack us?

KEOGH: So, I think the thing you've got to realise is that we, across our region in particular now, is probably the least stable that it's been in a long time. And so, you know, the way we think about that is that we are facing the greatest challenges in our area geostrategically since the Second World War.

MITSOPOULOS: You don't want to say the worst -

KEOGH: So, we need to be best prepared for whatever that may bring, and however that may arise and making sure we've got the best of defence capability to protect ourselves is fundamentally important. Having a nuclear-propelled submarine gives us that greater capability. It is one of the most elite parts of any defence capability across any nation. And so having that is vitally important.

MITSOPOULOS: What does WA get out of this? Amber-Jade Sanderson?

AMBER-JADE SANDERSON, WA MINISTER ASSISTING THE MINISTER FOR DEFENCE INDUSTRIES: Well, I don't think you can understate the opportunities that AUKUS presents and the incredible investment that is going to happen in Western Australia. The 30-year sustained shipbuilding is really a massive uplifting capability for Western Australians and opportunities. We have a proud history of shipbuilding in Western Australia, but it's been cyclical over time, and so what this is 30 years of sustained shipbuilding, nuclear capability, submarine and sub sustainment, with the rotation will provide an opportunity for literally thousands of jobs, apprentices and jobs. Jobs in defence and defence industries are good, quality, secure jobs. My dad got his first start as a sparky in the Navy. He was able to buy a house with a Navy mortgage, and he still lives in that house in Bayswater. So, you cannot understate how important these jobs are. They're quality jobs. We - Austal just released expressions of interest for 500 jobs already, and they haven't even really started. So, we've got huge opportunities, and our job as a State Government is to obviously manage the pressures that come with that in the community, to work with local governments and communities on those pressures, but make sure that we're getting the opportunities for young people. This region in particular has had high rates of youth unemployment. It's been stubborn over time. There are complex communities. So, the opportunities that are presented for communities down here are really, really important.

MITSOPOULOS: There was a bit of a tussle between WA and South Australia. South Australia gets to build the subs, will maintain them. Does that disappoint you a bit?

SANDERSON: Well, this is about building on the existing capability. So, we have, we're going to be working with Mitsubishi Heavy Industries on the Mogami frigates. We'll be supporting, through ASC, all of the subs. We've also got incredible capability around autonomous operations, drones, radio capability. All of those things are going to be part of the defence industries network in Western Australia. So, South Australia will do what they do well, we'll do what we do well, and we already have incredible existing resource capability and industrial capability. This is about building on that and making sure that we're building resilience in our economy.

MITSOPOULOS: I want to go to Warwick Carter. Now, Warwick, you represent a lot of the councils around this area, and we did speak to the Rockingham mayor earlier. Does this excite you or worry you? The scale of A, the influx of people coming in locally and from overseas, upskilling and the infrastructure that's going to be needed to support this industry.

WARWICK CARTER, DIRECTOR OF PERTH SOUTH WEST METROPOLITAN ALLIANCE: I think we're really happy that we're finally talking about it. Our role has been to try and talk about that. We need to come to terms with what is coming to this region and it's, you know, AUKUS is one part of that, but there's also a lot of other big industrial projects happening through here. We're tracking about $70 billion worth of government-backed investment coming into the region over the coming decades. Now, to put that in context, the Olympic Games in Brisbane is $7 billion. So, it's 10 Olympic Games worth of activity coming to our region. And so, we're coming to terms with how we prepare for that. So, you know, we acknowledge there's a lot of different views on AUKUS. What we're focused on is it's happening and how do we prepare for it. Because in 385 days, we expect an American submarine to be sitting off Garden Island.

MITSOPOULOS: The infrastructure, I think, is what worries a lot of people here roads, houses, when are all those houses, and where will all those houses be built? Expanding the road network. Are they the pressures that concern you, and who's going to pay for it, and how?

CARTER: Absolutely. And I think that's going to be the big question people are going to have. And what we know is these projects take time to deliver. They are very complex. We have all sorts of approvals we need to get through, so we need to get cracking on it. So, that is a genuine concern for us. There's a lot of work being done on the defence housing point of view, and that's great. But what we can see is the other growth that's going to come because of this. So, defence jobs create a lot of other jobs in the community. So, we're focused on, okay, we want to keep the quality of life we have down here. We've got a beautiful Rockingham foreshore here, get a great cup of coffee. Can we make sure baristas can still afford to live here? Can we make sure there's enough childcare centres? Can we make sure there's enough retail? Because that's where the growth pressures will be felt.

SANDERSON: Yeah, all very reasonable concerns and we've been working very closely with the community. The AUKUS taskforce, led by the local member Magenta Marshall, will be delivering their report to Cabinet, I think, later this year for consideration. We've got the Garden Island Transport Network Working Group, a cross-agency group. I think the mayor mentioned that earlier in her interview and we've actually released a footprint and a plan of the immediate upgrades that are required for some of those road networks that are at capacity, and the medium-term and longer-term road networks. So, we absolutely have a plan to support that increase. I agree that we need to make sure that Rockingham remains a really affordable and fantastic place to live for the local community. We've released 4,000 lots at Karnup. We've approved the Rockingham precinct structure plan. Working with the local government to make sure that there's a mix of housing, defence personnel will be supported through defence housing. So, we're really making sure that we're providing affordable stock for the broader community and access to the incredible amenity and quality of life that we already have down here.

MITSOPOULOS: Minister, you better hurry up and build that train station that you promised over a decade ago. But just on that point, the mayor, Lorna Buchan, earlier also talked about the associated community investment that is needed to enjoy the lifestyle here in Rockingham, and she wants, whether it's Federal Government or State Government, they want something like 50 million at the very least to upgrade, you know, health facilities, the libraries, pools, sporting grounds. Will they get that? Is there money for a community fund like that?

SANDERSON: Well, there's significant support already going into the community, and we're always looking at how we can support more-

MITSOPOULOS: They want a specific fund.

SANDERSON: - and they've been provided around $20 million worth of funding from the state government for sporting, for sporting facilities, including their aquatic centre and the basketball centre, and that's been very well advocated for by the local members, both the Federal Member and the State Member. We continue to work with them and look at how we can invest. We're upgrading local schools, we're providing a new mental health emergency centre for Rockingham Hospital. We're starting the work around that redevelopment of Rockingham Hospital. The Federal Government's working with us around urgent care clinics and providing access to healthcare. So, there is huge investment, and what this investment, the AUKUS investment, represents is even more investment in that community infrastructure.

CARTER: What we've said as local governments is we've looked at what is happening in other parts of the world. So, in Barrow in the UK, which is where their submarine base- construction base - is, like the equivalent of, I suppose, Adelaide, they're investing £220 million over 10 years into community infrastructure. Not in construction of submarines, but in supporting those communities, a community of 70,000 people, because they know that they need to make Barrow a better place to live and work if they want to attract the quality workforce. And so, we're looking at that and saying, well, actually we need this sort of approach as well. We're also talking to defence communities in the US. Over there, they have something called the Defence Community Infrastructure Plan. And what they say is, look, there's communities that support defence efforts, and they need to be really resilient. And so they put money aside that all the defence communities in the US can bid for. We've put a proposal to the Federal Government saying we should have a fund like that here. We've suggested a pilot project of $50 million, not for our region, but for any defence community in Australia. So, places like [indistinct] Townsville, that they could apply for it as well to put in infrastructure that helps create more resilient communities, helps people make sure that defence personnel, when they're deployed, aren't worried about their families.

MITSOPOULOS: Is there a risk you could underinvest?

KEOGH: So, I think it's really important to understand the scope and scale relativity here of what we're talking about. So, when we are talking about the defence uplift around AUKUS and HMAS Stirling, we're talking about around 1,000 personnel coming to Australia. Some will bring families, some will be single, some will be living on base, some will be housed in the community, and that'll be provided through Defence Housing Australia. And they're already working with property developers in terms of apartment options as well as housing, the broader housing options across a broad area, because we don't want to see people all grouped up into one space but actually spread through the community. So, they get that great community lifestyle that we were talking about protecting. But the context of that is that about 1,000 people a week move into this area.

MITSOPOULOS: It's an extraordinary amount of people.

KEOGH: And so that is an extraordinary amount of people. But the 1,000 that we are supporting through that are going to be part of the rotational force coming through Stirling is a drop in the Ocean of that 1,000 a week that are coming in. But of course, we've also got the uplift that come with the upgrades at Henderson and the work that's going to be happening in defence industry. But those people are going to live all throughout the metropolitan community. Barrow in the UK is a small town, and really the only industry, the only thing that happens there, is building submarines. And so, the only opportunity for investment is basically defence. When we look at the United States, their defence communities are that everybody lives on base. Those defence communities are effectively defence bases. And so all of the infrastructure, all of the community infrastructure, is an investment in a base to provide that. Because it's a bit like mining towns were in WA. The whole thing's artificial. We're really blessed here in Australia, where we have Adelaide, Perth are going to be our major industrial hubs for supporting defence, but also where we've got major bases in cities and people are spread out and in the community. Now, that's really important because you want families to be able to get all the benefit of the cities that they live in. Schools, universities, community centres, sporting hubs. As Amber mentioned, there's investment going into all of those things, through Rockingham, through Kwinana, through Coburn, but all through the metropolitan area. And we continue to work on that as federal MPs and as state MPs and as Federal Governments and State Governments with local government, to make sure you get that investment across communities, to make sure that they've got all of the social infrastructure and capital that people would expect. But it's not just all happening in one place, because we actually spread these communities out. It's not like a Barrow where there's 70,000 people that effectively are just supporting one effort.

MITSOPOULOS: You're not convinced?

CARTER: No, I think there's this misapprehension that it's only 1,000 people. Well, the base numbers for Garden Island are going - we know in 2021 there were 3,306 people who worked there. The estimate is to go to 9,000 by 2050. That's the equivalent of the workers of everyone going into the Fremantle CBD. So, it's quite a big employment base, but on top of that is what those. Let's say it's just 1,000 people, but it is more than that of what they do to a community. When we have people migrate to our region, we get butchers, bakers, candlestick makers. So, if you think about it like baking a cake, you've got more of every ingredient. This is doubling the flour. The cake won't work unless we get all the other ingredients right. So, we do need to make sure that the rest of the economy grows, and we know it will grow because of that. And that's why South Australia is pushing so hard into the defence industries base because they know it will kick-start their economy. That's what we've seen in every other defence industry community, and so we know that the change is coming. We know that that's when we feel the pain because we're not ready. We don't have the childcare centres ready for when this group comes in, or we don't have the roads ready. That's the growing pains; that's what the community will be noticing first.

KEOGH: But I think that significant growth is out to 2050. So, we're talking about up to a thousand over the, up to, over the next few years. So, it's, you know, we've got about 30 odd here now, that'll grow over time out to 2050. Sure, we've got to make sure all those things are met, but that comes over time, and of course the population of the state will grow hugely. And if you're talking about 1,000 people a week moving into this community as it is and the growing areas and the suburbs around it, that those numbers are only a proportion of the overall. Now, that all needs to be supported by Local, State and Federal Governments as we would ordinarily do regardless, because you've got to meet that growth. What's great about it, though, is that the quality of jobs and investment that comes with that and supports that growth. Because Amber mentioned before, sometimes communities are not getting that investment in those job opportunities, and we're creating those job opportunities, and then that creates further job opportunities as well. So, that's great. The fact that you've got that attractor happening much better than the alternative of not having those attractors, and will work overtime. Because it is a long growth pathway, Minister.

SANDERSON: Yeah, that's right. It's about sustained growth and sustainable growth for the community. It's building industries across the metropolitan area. But in the southern corridor we are going to have a large infrastructure build so that over the next 10 years, Westport, Henderson Precinct, Western Trade Coast, we are really - the Premier is right when he says that Kwinana and Rockingham are the centre of the universe. It is driving our economy. The great thing about the West Australian economy is there are many parts to it. We're not just a defence town, we're not just a resources economy, we are diversifying our economy. We have energy infrastructure, we have advanced manufacturing capability, we're building a screen and creative industries industry with the new film studios in Malaga. So, this isn't about a single town with a single industry. This is about quality local jobs that people will have access to that they have not had access to before. Jobs where you can go home at night and see your family. Jobs where you don't have to get on a plane and spend key family dates and important milestones away from your family. High-paid quality jobs in and around defence industry in trades, in fabrication, in electrical trades. The opportunities are enormous here and we do have to make sure that the growth is sustained. But for the local community, for families who want futures, for their kids, who want good quality jobs, this is an opportunity that we have to grasp.

MITSOPOULOS: Alright, we're going to go to questions. This is our Spotlight forum on AUKUS. That's the voice of Amber-Jade Sanderson, WA Minister assisting the Minister for Defence Industries. We have Matt Keogh here, the Federal Minister for Defence Personnel and Veterans' Affairs, and Warwick Carter, Director of the Perth Southwest Metropolitan Alliance. He represents the local councils. There are a lot of questions about security. Sean, where are you? Hi Sean, what's your question?

SEAN: Yeah, hi. I think that this will prove historically to be a very bad decision.

SANDERSON: Why?

SPEAKER: The US is one of the most fickle allies on earth. If you look at all the Emirates, all the Emirates in the Gulf of the Arabian Gulf, they have not been protected by US presence, they've just become targets.

MITSOPOULOS. So, what is your question, Sean?

SEAN: My question is am I wrong? Simple three words.

MITSOPOULOS. So, are we going to be a target? I think is what -

KEOGH: I don't think that was -

MITSOPOULOS: I think his point is about solving the reliance of the US.

KEOGH: So, I think you've actually made a really good argument for why we need AUKUS. We need to make sure - We need to make sure that we've got good sovereign capability here in Australia. And that's what this program is about developing - that we have Australian nuclear-propelled submarine capability in our defence force, and that's what this delivers and so that's fundamentally important in the pathway to getting there. We need to grow our nuclear capability and of course that means training our people and right now we're training our people in the United States, in the United Kingdom, in Pearl Harbour, in Guam, doing the work around how do we do sustain it, how do we do maintenance, how do we do build, and how do we operate these submarines? And then having the rotational force here allows us to develop that capability so we can operate our own submarines. First, the Virginia class and then the AUKUS class of submarine. They are Australian-flagged, sovereign-capable for Australia and so making sure that we've got that freedom of movement, that capacity to engage on our own terms as a defence force, is something that we get by having our own submarines that have this greater capability than our existing class of submarines, and that's what we're seeking to deliver here.

SANDERSON: We've also been hosting nuclear submarines for decades. We have been hosting them. Not nuclear-powered ones, nuclear-powered submarines.

MITSOPOULOS: Not nuclear-powered ones.

SANDERSON: Yes, we have. Yes, we have, we have been hosting this. We are one of the safest jurisdictions in the world to do this. We have the skills to do this. The increased rotation has obviously triggered a range of infrastructure and supports around that, but this is not new; this is not new. We've been hosting these subs for decades. We have been one of the biggest and most active naval bases in the country for decades. So, and broadly, the community knows that and understands it.

MITSOPOULOS: There is concern, though, because isn't there a get-out clause where if the US needed those submarines, they can take them back?

KEOGH: They will be Australian-owned submarines when we have those submarines, the three Australian-owned submarines.

MITSOPOULOS. So, there's no get out? Isn't there a get out?

KEOGH: There's processes around the approvals for those submarines being transferred, as you would expect. But they will be Australian-owned submarines.

MITSOPOULOS: When Australia has them, when we get them, though. So, before they could change their mind, I mean, we're talking about a [indistinct] project.

KEOGH: Well, I think what's really important to understand about that is there's an agreement that we will have those submarines, and that's an agreement that has been made with one side of politics in the United States and confirmed by the other side of politics. We've had in the United Kingdom a system, an arrangement that started under the Conservative government there and has been affirmed by the new Labor Government there and the new Labor Prime Minister there only recently. So, this is something that started under a coalition government here in Australia and has been continued and actually had the detail put around it by the Labor Government. These are things that are bipartisan because all three countries and politics across all three countries see it is in all of their national interests.

MITSOPOULOS: Could it make us a target? A lot of people in the audience asking that, is there a risk that this could make us a target?

SANDERSON: Well, look, I understand why people are asking the question, but as I said, we have been doing this for decades. HMAS Stirling has been operating as one of the largest and busiest naval bases hosting nuclear-powered subs for decades and decades. This isn't new, and we have the capability and experience in Western Australia to do it. We also host the US Defence in the northwest in Exmouth. So, this isn't new, and I don't think it is going to make us any more of a target. Our strategic partnerships in the region are important for peace and stability in the region. That is what is the most important thing here. This is about peace and stability in the region and, importantly, improving our own sovereign capability. Secure supply chains to ensure energy security, manufacturing security, security around healthcare and medicine. So, those partnerships are critical around all of the things that we need to function as a community.

MITSOPOULOS: Thank you. Let's go to - I just want to take another question. Brian, where are you? Where are you, Brian? Let's just quickly get a microphone to you. Straight to your question, Brian.

“BRIAN”, AUDIENCE MEMBER: Yes. Okay, well, I'm thinking the end of these nuclear-powered submarines. And so recently F1-11s were buried in Queensland near where they were operated out of because they had asbestos. The question simply is, where are these submarines, at the end of their service life, going to be stored, buried? Is it going to be in the middle of Australia? Considering it's going to be good for Australia, are they going to be left for Sterling like some of the European countries in the past, just sitting in the water wasting away?

KEOGH: So, given the timelines that we're working on, we're not going to see that sort of high level of nuclear waste in terms of the expiration of the reactors until well after the 2050s. So, that's work that will be ongoing around identifying a site that will be on a defence, defence estate for high-level waste storage. But that is many, many decades away. But that's how it will operate.

MITSOPOULOS: Alright, we're just going to pause there and head back to the newsroom and get news Headlines with Jonathan Beale, who is actually this is the last time you will hear him actually reading the news on the morning show. He will come back for a little interview next Thursday before he retires, but this is it. And Matt Keogh has just said that makes him sad. Jonathan Beale, hello.

JONATHAN BEALE, NEWSREADER: Hello, Nadia. I will be here for the subsequent bulletins. So, I'll be here till midday. These will be my last few.

MITSOPOULOS: This is last 10:30 headlines, Phew. Okay. Everyone's, everyone's happy with that. All right, over to you.

BEALE: Everybody can just remember what they were doing on that day. In the headlines, Nadia, a liquidator from BCR Advisory has described Bella Modular Holmes recent liquidation as an unmitigated disaster. Geoff Davis, comment comes after the Perth based company abruptly told its customers it was ceasing work, leaving projects unfinished. Mr. Davis says Bella Modular owes its customers a total contract value of $16.3 million. Higher oil prices are forecast to further increase inflation and put more pressure on the Reserve Bank to lift interest rates. In Australia, oil prices have jumped by more than 7% as tensions intensify in the Middle East. The price spike coincides with the European Union's Central bank raising interest rates for the second time this year. NAB chief economist Sally Auld says high oil prices will have economists adjusting their inflation forecasts. And former Australian Prime Minister John Howard has reflected on the 25th anniversary of the September 11 terrorist attacks, saying the tragedy transformed the world. Today marks 25 years since two passenger jets flew into the twin towers of the World Trade Centre in New York. Mr. Howard, who was in Washington on the day of the attacks, says 911 shattered the illusion that the world was free of terrorism. Morning is not here at 11 o'.Clock.

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MITSOPOULOS: Jonathan Beal, thank you very much. Can we say thank you to Jonathan Beal. The last time he will do the 10:30 news headlines on the morning show, but you'll get him at 11. We're going to return to our Spotlight forum on AUKUS next.

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MITSOPOULOS: Nice to be back with you. This is our AUKUS Spotlight. Please. Just a reminder and thanks again to our panel for being here. Matt Keogh, Federal Minister for Defence Personnel and Veterans' Affairs. Amber-Jade Sanderson, WA Minister assisting the Minister for Defence Industries, and Warwick Carter from the Perth Southwest Metropolitan Alliance. Let's go to some more questions. Ivy, you have one. Hi, Ivy.

“IVY”, AUDIENCE MEMBER: Hi. Thank you. What we're hearing is a huge amount of community uncertainty, especially around social and security issues. Are we really ready for this? It sounds like we're building the plane as it's taking off and my question is, is near enough good enough for this community? Who wants to take that one on?

CARTER: Well, I think there's 300 and as I said, there's 385 days until surf west commences. That's the earliest date it can commence and then there's other dates that will come along from there. So, look, if we had our time again, I'm sure we would like to be able to plan better, but we can't. So, what we can do is focus on what we can do between now and then to deliver. There is work going on in terms of trying to support certain aspects of the supply chains into the defence, but what we're saying is we need to just support everything. We know we're going to need a bigger city for all of this. So, it's a case of how do we plan for that growth, for everything from the council's perspectives, we have. I think Mayor Buchan was on earlier talking about how they've rezoned their city centre to get an extra 16,000 residents in there. Kwinana is looking at doing similar things, although their planning strategy has been stalled with the state government for over a year now. If you would like to help out with that, I think they'd be happy. Cockburn again, also looking to get density in around Cockburn Central and places. So, the councils have prepared for the communities to grow. The other thing we need to focus on is also industrial land. We need a lot more, but brought onto the market very quickly because that's where we're also facing some. We will miss some of these opportunities if we don't get ahead of the industrial land needs.

SANDERSON: I would respectfully disagree with Warwick that the planning hasn't been done because that's why the AUKUS task force led by Magenta Marshall is in place with all of the agencies and community representatives, we've done the transport network planning and actually outlined the framework of the immediate upgrades, the medium term and the long term upgrades. The school planning has obviously been done and upgrades underway. There is pressure, local pressure, on hospital services, and largely that is due to an ageing population, not Defence personnel. So, we have to deal with that and support growth in aged care and childcare and all of those services. This is about sustained growth over time. This is a beautiful place to live and work and that's why so many people are coming to this area to come and live and work. It's not necessarily because of the AUKUS program or the naval shipbuilding, but to inject that amount of investment in the local economy should be welcomed by the local government, it should be welcomed by the local businesses. Small businesses will thrive, the medium sized manufacturers will thrive. We're going to give them opportunities that just would not have been presented if this had not been happening.

KEOGH: I think also it's really important to remember we're in the fifth year of AUKUS now and the fourth year of our government having put the meat on the bones of exactly how that pathway looks in terms of having the rotational force and then acquiring the Virginia class submarines before we move to the AUKUS class of submarines. And the rotational force is something that we have been preparing for across that time. We now have a new nuclear safety regulator for naval nuclear safety in place. There's been a hell of a lot of work done out on the island, which of course the community doesn't really see most of, and that's where the rotational force will be based. We've had people training across the United Kingdom and the United States on how to sustain these submarines. We've already done sustainment work onto American submarines when they've come to visit here already. So, in terms of the preparation work that's been going on, there's been a hell of a lot of work going on. And we've obviously been working very closely with our partners in the United Kingdom and the United States, and in particular around things like nuclear safety and nuclear stewardship, to make sure that we've got the capability here to support the rotational force at HMAS Stirling. And we're growing that housing stock to support the people that are coming in from the United States initially, and we've already got some of them here to make sure all of those things are in place. But in terms of then the growth towards us operating our own submarines and the growth in the population of people coming from those other countries as part of those rotational forces, they grow over time. So, we are building and supporting that over time to meet that capability and capacity as it's needed. We don't build everything all at once, but there's a hell of a lot of work that's actually already happened in the places where it's going to be used and utilised, primarily at HMAS Stirling, as well as work that's already happened to some extent at Henderson. So, I think this idea that, oh, we're somehow completely behind the eight ball when there's literally billions of dollars that has been expended on uplift in terms of physical infrastructure, training of personnel, training of industry to support this, which should not be overlooked at all.

MITSOPOULOS: David Harris is here. He's the CEO of the Kwinana Industries Council. Hi, David.

DAVID HARRIS, CEO KWINANA INDUSTRIES: Morning, Nadia. I think while today's focus is on AUKUS and Defence industries, this is just one of a number of mega projects coming into this region, the Western Trade Coast. And from our perspective, we've never done anything like this, of this scale, with this complexity in this single area, in this short amount of time, ever. It's an enormous opportunity, but the focus now is on delivery. We've got to piece this together, right, so we've got AUKUS, there's Westport, there's new major industrial projects coming into this region. It's a great opportunity, but. But it's about how we all lean in and deliver on what needs to be done. So, that I'd like to think that for generations to come, they'll look back on us as leaders and community members and say we've done this in the best possible way to deliver generational benefits. That's the challenge. Let's just roll up our sleeves and get this done.

MITSOPOULOS: Alright, David, thank you. That brings me to Andrew. Andrew, where are you? Can we just behind you there, Kate, because you've got. You're concerned about skills. Hi, Andrew.

“ANDREW”, AUDIENCE MEMBER: Hi. As a submarine veteran, my biggest question. Thank you. My biggest question is, what's your plan for recruitment and retention? Because I've been hearing this song since the 70s and the strain on families and crews when you don't have enough people is brutal. And PTSD is a real thing. And I'd like to know what the game plan is if and when you don't have enough people.

KEOGH: So, great question.

MITSOPOULOS: And a real possibility.

KEOGH: So, obviously, as I said, this has been five years in the planning, but also even before AUKUS, Australia had a plan to grow its submarines fleet with bigger submarines, so more submarines and bigger submarines. So, we were already well in advance in terms of planning to grow our submariner workforce in particular, but the defence workforce in general. And so when we did our Defence Strategic Review, when we came into government, that was then matched with the National Defence Strategy and followed by the workforce plan. We've done a lot of work around improving our recruitment into defence and improving our retention. And what we've seen now, so the previous year, so 24, 25, we had our biggest recruitment year in 15 years and we've continued on that pace, which is excellent. We've also seen our retention rates, or our separation rates, I should say, fall to historic lows. So, when we came out of COVID they were well above where they'd been historically. They were over 10 per cent in terms of our separation rate. We're now down around 7. And what that has meant is, for the last few years, we have now seen the Defence Force go from shrinking to growing again, which is not just about submarines, submarines being critically important, but for a whole range of capability. We need to grow the size of our defence force. And we are doing that. And so I completely understand the concern. And I've been having discussions from when I was in opposition, when we were looking at other submarine plans through now in government, with people at HMAS Stirling and in careers planning around how do we make sure we grow those forces. And of course, it's not just about growing the size, it's also making sure they're getting the right training. So, now, as well as recruiting people into the Navy to be submariners in our existing force, the Collins class submarines, you can sign up directly to be a nuclear submariner and you'll come into direct entry training and then you'll be sent off to, whether it's the United States or the UK, as part of their nuclear submariner training, so that we are growing that capability right now organically here in Australia, using our partners. And then, of course, we'll have our own training programs once we have our sovereign capable submarines as well. So, you're absolutely right to raise the issue. And it's something that occupies a lot of my time as the Minister for Defence Personnel. But I'm really pleased to see that we are now growing our defence force and growing that submariner capability, both for our existing fleet and for our new fleet.

SANDERSON: And more broadly in the economy around how we support the growing economy and defence industries. We're going to probably create around 10,000 jobs over the next five to six years in and around defence industries and we're going to need another 144,000 across WA by 2030 across all of our industries. So, we're working industry by industry to make sure that they're investing in the local uplift and skilling of our local community. We want West Australians to have access to those jobs first. So, we'll be releasing the workforce development plan later this year, which is an industry based plan for the resources sector, defence, creative skills and industry, manufacturing, clean energy. We still need to deliver our energy transition. So, we need every industry to lean in and invest in apprentices, invest in training, support school leavers with school based traineeships and apprentices and make sure that they're getting opportunities. We've invested hundreds of millions of dollars in free TAFE and training and apprentice investments. And I agree with the mayor that we do need the.

MITSOPOULOS. So, will there be a skill centre here?

SANDERSON: That's certainly the intent and we're working with the Federal Government around that. And I'm glad I've got my federal counterparts.

KEOGH: Is that a yes?

MITSOPOULOS: Skill centre here?

KEOGH: Well, there's already great skills investment.

MITSOPOULOS: That's not my question.

KEOGH: No, it's really important, Nadia. The South Metro TAFE is doing the most amazing amount of skills investment and has been now for some time because we, even before we got to AUKUS, the development of shipbuilding here and the expansion of shipbuilding here in Western Australia has been crucial. And so the work that's been done through South Metro TAFE in particular, and in particular the Rockingham campus and the other campuses close by on those specific skills has been going on for some time. And so we've got a great base to build off.

MITSOPOULOS: But you want another separate, dedicated--

SANDERSON: Well, we've already established the Defence Centre for Excellence or Defence Skills Centre for Excellence, which has industry partners as well as government members. And we've actually got multiple campuses. So, it's not one centre, although there probably will be one major footprint. It's actually spread across multiple campuses across the South Metro TAFE footprint. So, it isn't going to be one centre, it's going to be across a range of those centres because they're going to meet many, many skills required.

MITSOPOULOS: All right, let's-- thank you very much for that, Warwick.

CARTER: Oh, look, the only thing I'd say is, look, absolutely, if you want a career in STEM working on industry, sorry, there'll be no shortage of those opportunities, working on pretty interesting things. But I'd say for those people who aren't want to work in the arts, who want to work in, you know, chefs, things like that. We need the best communities to support this effort because we, we can't compete with the mining wages, so all we can have is lifestyle. And so whatever you're passionate about, whatever your kids are passionate about, just tell them to follow their passion because there'll be jobs in that too. Unless they're into volcanoes and skiing, we will have pretty much every job in WA here. So, we need passionate people.

MITSOPOULOS: Yeah, or kicking balls. Now can we go to Judy, because there's some environmental concerns. Judy, what's your question?

“JUDY”, AUDIENCE MEMBER: Thank you very much.

MITSOPOULOS: Straight to the question.

JUDY: Yes. What will be the environmental benefits to the health of Cockburn Sound provided by these rapid change? Full stop.

KEOGH: So, I guess I'll probably come at that in a slightly different way. I can't speak to what the impact on Cockburn Sound is on terms of the Westport development and those sorts of activities, which is probably much more impactful than, say, what we're doing. So, we'll be operating submarines through HMAS Stirling. I mean, we've been operating submarines and other naval ships through HMAS Stirling and obviously bringing them across to Henderson for maintenance work for many decades since, you know, Kim Beazley was the local member and established the Two Ocean Policy and HMA Stirling became Australia's largest naval base. That activity has been continuous through that time. So, there's not a huge change in terms of that activity continuing to occur. But in terms of what's going on with Cockburn Sound more generally, that's a-- I'll leave that with Amber, because there's broader state issues going on.

SANDERSON: Well, there's been enormous investment in supporting the environmental protection of Cockburn Sound and all of those developments will have to go through very, very rigorous environmental assessments. And certainly Westport is very much a part of that. We know that it is a really important environmental asset. You have some really sensitive environmental areas in the region. West Australia is probably one of the best places in the world with those skills to manage heavy industry with sensitive environmental areas. And we make a commitment to that as a state government to ensure that we're protecting those areas of the environment, those areas of important Aboriginal cultural heritage, and making sure that we are protecting that footprint whilst supporting the development of industry in a responsible way

CARTER: One thing, I can't talk about the Sound, but when Garden Island got its approvals for some of these new base activities, there was an environmental approval went through there. And I used to work as a town planner. I looked at the approvals. They are the most onerous approval conditions I've ever seen. They're very detailed. But one of the ones that really interested me was there's a requirement for them to keep Garden Island free of feral animals for 60 years. Now that's an opportunity. We might be able to look at reintroducing species on Garden Island because a lot of Garden Island is just natural bushland. So, the opportunity for us is to learn from these projects. How can we do things better? Because I think it's a great point. We need to make sure we leave the environment better than we found it. So, I would just say there are very serious people looking at the conditions on this and trying to make sure we get good outcomes.

MITSOPOULOS: Alright, quick question from Kim. Hi.

“KIM”, AUDIENCE MEMBER: Hello. My question is very simple. Will the exclusion zone of Garden Island remain the same after AUKUS and the Americans come over here at present where the public are allowed to visit Pig Trough Bay, Herring Bay, Sulphur Bay, I can take my small boat within a metre of the shore of the back of Garden Island for recreational activities. I have been promised by a naval officer at Rockingham Centre a year ago that it won't change. I think when the Americans will change, it will. Can you guarantee no change to the exclusion zone waters of Garden Island today?

MITSOPOULOS: Matt Keogh? It's a good question because this is a recreational area for people too. But it's going to change, isn't it?

KEOGH: What I want to be clear about is I can't give you a hundred year guarantee, I can't give you a 50 year guarantee. I think you need, for obvious reasons things can change over that time and it's got nothing to do with AUKUS, but it is Australia's most significant naval base and that's a critical capability for keeping our country safe. So, there may not be change in the immediate term. That's not. But I don't want to give you some sort of open ended guarantee because that would be unfair.

MITSOPOULOS: But the Americans could ask for a wider exclusion zone, couldn't they. So, he can't give you a yes or no I guess is what you're saying I think.

KEOGH: I think there is a commitment to try and maintain that access because we completely understand that people like having that. You know we are lucky to have an island chain that includes Rottnest, Carnac and Garden island and people have been using that island in that way for some time. But it has always, for a very long time, but especially for the last 40 odd years been a co-use island and the Defence Establishment there is in maintaining the security of that's incredibly important.

MITSOPOULOS: But I imagine the Americans would have a say if they decided they wanted to.

KEOGH: Well, sure, we've been engaging with them already. So, that, like, I'm comfortable in terms of the short term. I just don't want to. I'm trying to be like really helpful to you in not giving you an answer and then have you come back and say, oh, well, they said this 30 years ago. Like things have changed there over the 40 years. Things may change over 40 years. And not because of the Americans necessarily, maybe because of something that the Australian government wants to do with how it operates a naval base. But at the moment that access is something that we well understand. I know Madeleine and Magenta well understand the community's desire to maintain that access. And frankly, the naval personnel want to maintain that access because they use it all the time themselves as well. So, yes, that will be there. But I'm not giving, you know, unlimited guarantees. That's all.

SANDERSON: The principle that the state and Federal Government are working on is least disruption to the community and to industry. We accept and understand that access to those natural areas are a really important part of living here and the local amenity. And we want to make sure that the community continues to have good access to natural areas. There's also really strong eco tourism in this region and we want to make that thrive, we want to grow that and we need to do that by providing access. Now, we can't necessarily provide absolute guarantee on particular bays and areas on Garden Island that is dealt with by Defence, but the principle remains from both levels of government. We want to maintain least disruption to the community, to business, and maintain as much access as possible.

MITSOPOULOS: Okay, Clint, you have a question?

CLINTON BRADBURY: Yes, Clinton Bradbury with AUKUS and Henderson. Local industries will need support of many foreign companies and these companies will look to enter by acquiring local Australian companies. The state government has the Department of Invest and Trade, has the Department of Energy and Economic Diversification. What else is being done to support these companies coming into Western Australia from a federal government? And also have these numbers been considered for the local infrastructure support?

KEOGH: So, I think, can I make the point that one of the things that comes not just from AUKUS, but our engagement with our partners broadly and particularly the UK and the US is that the pie is getting much bigger. And so the thing that we're actually seeking to do and seeing success with is Australian companies entering into the supply chains in the UK and the US to support both their nuclear propelled submarine industries, but also aircraft carriers and other naval industry and other parts of the defence space. And so the arrangements that we've entered in through to, through AUKUS are best enabling that. And we're seeing the best market entry for Australian businesses into those other countries defence industry than we've ever seen before. And so whilst yes, there will certainly be no doubt interest from other countries in being able to establish here to support defence industry, we are seeing the best opportunity because the pie is growing. And look, the reality is when we look around the world, whether it's what we're seeing in the Middle East, what we're seeing in Europe, what we are experiencing in our own region, defence industry is one of the most rapidly growing industries in the world. And with that pie growing, with that pie growing, the opportunity is there not just to support our own defence force for defence industry, but to plug into in a way that hasn't been available before. And I know it's been a great frustration for defence industry players here in Australia, but to be able to plug into the rest of the world in supplying. So, I'm much more interested in seeing how do we make sure our local businesses not only thrive from supporting Australian Defence Force capability requirement, but also being able to support our other partners and growing that pie for our businesses here.

SANDERSON: From a state government perspective we already have quite a large or significant defence industry or manufacturing base but that defence tends to be one small part of what they do. We have incredible capability particularly around supporting technology and the resources sector and autonomous operations. That's exactly the kind of capability that we're looking to support and expand in Western Australia. And it'll be partnerships with Prime. We want the small to medium sized businesses to grow. We're supporting with a range of projects, a range of supports to get security clearances, to invest in capital upgrades, to invest in training and we'll be looking at how we can support them further to take up those opportunities.

MITSOPOULOS: Alright, thank you for your question, Clint. Let's go to Greens MP Sophie McNeill is here. What's your question Sophie?

SOPHIE MCNEILL, WA GREENS MP: Hi Nadia. I just want to have a minute to say something because a lot of politicians who support AUKUS and I'm a politician who represents hundreds of thousands -

MITSOPOULOS: - get straight to questions.

MCNEILL: - Yeah, yeah. Hundreds of thousands of strange who oppose AUKUS because this will make us a target. And the reality is we have, we have the Minister say this is nothing new. Minister, I live 11 minutes away from Henderson which is going to be the fifth nuclear maintenance submarine facility in the world. The other four in the US that is a huge deal. Eleven minutes from my front door. It's nowhere near where you live, Matt either. Right, so this is a huge deal for us here in the southern suburbs. The other thing is this is about preparing for war. This is about going to war with China. None of that's been discussed that you're all talking about jobs, investment. This is about war. So, I'd like to point that out. And the question is, I have a 15-year-old son who wants to be a sparky and last week he got taken on an excursion all the public and private schools in the southern suburbs. A trade day. If you want to be a carpenter, a sparky, come to a trade state. Oh, it was on HMAS Stirling. No mention of AUKUS in the email to parents. Comes home with a toy submarine and a hat. He hasn't been recruited by a renewable energy company. Minister, what happened to becoming a renewable energy superpower? You are in our schools recruiting our children to join the U.S. Department of War's efforts to go to war against China. This is not the future we want for our kids. I want them to be in a renewable energy superpower. What happened to that plan?

MITSOPOULOS: Sophie McNeill, Greens MP thank you. And there are people who, as you can see, she's getting a lot of applause, who do feel uncomfortable that we are becoming a factory of war.

SANDERSON: Well, I would. I just don't support the premise of that at all. Defence industries and a career in defence. And I have a. My brother is currently serving in defence and sometimes I'm quite offended by the rest the of rhetoric that comes from The Greens and Sophie McNeil on this. There are a lot of people in the community who support our veterans and who support defence industries and whose families have benefited from the start that it gives them in life. It is an important investment in our community. Our job as a state government is to make sure that those kids who live in really challenged environments, in really complex social circumstances have opportunities to access a quality job. That is our role and that is what I am focused on doing as the Minister for Skills and Training is making sure that those kids that. I don't think Sophie McNeill goes and visits many of those suburban high schools and I'd invite her to go and do that.

MITSOPOULOS: But if you're a -

SANDERSON: - And go and talk to those parents and go and talk to those parents about the opportunities of a good quality job in Western Australia, whether it's in the resources sector, defence industry, the energy transition, whether it's in advanced manufacturing or in healthcare or creative industries, There are opportunities. Now, they may not be for some people and we accept that.

MITSOPOULOS: But you feel that there are opportunities. If you're going to get school kids to go on a warship, you should at least tell the parents. I think that's probably fair enough, isn't it? That's fair enough, isn't it?

KEOGH: Well, I don't know about what Sophie said, but so much of what she just said was without foundation. I can't really take it all at its word. But I think what's really important here, because there's a fundamental misapprehension here of what was just said. Nothing about no one in this room, I expect, and certainly not here, is wanting to go to war. That is not what this is about. This is about protecting us. This is about our defence. That's what we are trying to do, that we are best prepared for. That is why we have an Australian Defence Force. But in having an Australian Defence Force, we need to make sure that it is properly capable. We support the people who serve in it, we recruit people to it, we support people well after their service as well. And we make sure that we've got an industrial base that supports that work as well. And I think one of the things that often gets overlooked when people hear the word defence industry. The Minister Amber mentioned before, there's lots of businesses involved in defence industry that are also involved in our resources industry, involved in so many other industries. And the spin off benefits that come from advanced manufacturing into expanding so many other industries is really, really important. So, we need to have that defence industry but we also get additional benefit out of that, supporting the diversification of our economy as well. But the thing here is about making sure that we are a safe -

MITSOPOULOS: - Just let him answer that.

KEOGH: We are a safe and secure country. I can't speak to what has happened in any individual school, but I will always encourage people who are interested to join our defence force.

MITSOPOULOS: Alright, we are running out of time so I'm going to leave it there. But our panel has very kindly agreed to stay for an extra 15 minutes once we go to the news and just answer some more questions, if they want to answer some more questions. But could you please thank our panel, Matt Keogh, Amber-Jade Sanderson and Warwick Carter. Appreciate you coming all the way to Rockingham. Thank you. Also to the Rockingham Bowling Club. You have been fantastic. I've thoroughly enjoyed being here. There'll be another AUKUS spotlight, another Spotlight forum. Not sure yet, but there will certainly be another one. Thank you so much for your company.

ENDS