Television Interview, ABC Afternoon Briefing

SUBJECTS: Special Forces Inquiry, AUKUS and inflation.

PATRICIA KARVELAS: For a view from the government, I spoke to the Defence
Industry Minister, Pat Conroy, a short time ago. Minister, welcome to the
program.

MINISTER FOR DEFENCE INDUSTRY PAT CONROY: Thanks for having me.

PATRICIA KARVELAS: The ADF report is 4 years old, and it finds failures by military
commanders contributed to Australia's alleged war crimes in Afghanistan. A lot
of what we've heard previously is about the lower levels rather than obviously
higher up. The Chief of the Defence Force, Mark Hammond, says he has nothing to
contest in the report. Do you share that view?

MINISTER CONROY: No, absolutely. This was an independent report released the
executive summary today or yesterday, in fact, that found that the command
culture contributed to, but importantly did not cause what occurred in
Afghanistan. That's an important distinction. We obviously accept that. We
accepted the findings of Brereton Report. The Deputy Prime Minister, in closing
out the government's response in 2024, outlined the significant changes that
we've made and we'll continue to make. The defence culture. The culture has
improved; it has changed, but we need to do more so that things like this can
never occur again.

PATRICIA KARVELAS: Accountability is important, though. Will further action be
taken against defence leadership in light of this report?

MINISTER CONROY: Well, this report, as you said, is 4 years old, so actions have
been taken between when this report was given to the government and now. The
DPM outlined that in his response in September 2024 that involved, obviously
discussing things like awards. People's prospects obviously were impacted by
their actions at this time as well. We've made significant changes to the
defence organisation, made clearer lines of accountability, introduced things
around ethics and clearer lines of reporting, and that will continue as time
goes on, so that we don't have an occurrence like this. 

PATRICIA KARVELAS: Does it worry you, though, that accountability is being only
pursued at the lower levels rather than in headquarters?

MINISTER CONROY: Well, I don't think that's accurate. I think accountability has
been pursued throughout the chain of command.

PATRICIA KARVELAS: But there's accountability, and then there are, like, real legal
consequences that the accountability that we don't see is not the sort of accountability
I'm talking about.

MINISTER CONROY: Well, I think there were consequences that occurred throughout
the chain of command at the time.

PATRICIA KARVELAS: What's a consequence you can point to?

MINISTER CONROY: Well, I won't name individuals because I want to respect
privacy, but I know of a number of senior ADF officers who exited the service
who were made clear their career prospects weren't going...

PATRICIA KARVELAS: They were sacked.

MINISTER CONROY: They weren't sacked, but they clearly weren't candidates for
promotion.

PATRICIA KARVELAS: As a result directly of the allegations in Afghanistan and the
way that was handled,

MINISTER CONROY: Of them being identified as part of the command culture at that
time. So, I'm not going to go into individuals because I think that's unfair,
but I know of individuals whose careers did not progress because of this. So,
there was accountability at that time and will continue to do so as we improve
culture.

PATRICIA KARVELAS: How do we know that accountability among defence leadership has
improved? Like, what are the metrics which you're basing that on?

MINISTER CONROY: Well, that's more a question for the Deputy Prime Minister as
the Defence Minister, I'm the Defence Industry Minister. So, I want to respect
other Ministers' authority and portfolios. But clearly we've got clearer lines
of accountability. We've got a closer link between Special Operations Command
and the broader ADF. That was one of the key findings of the IGADF: there was a
culture of separation there. They're clearly working closer together. There's
also a culture within Special Operations of too much authority and autonomy
being vested in sub-unit commanders and NCOs. That has changed as well. So,
there is meaningful change that's occurred already, but this is a process that
will keep continuing because we must not allow this to ever happen again. 

PATRICIA KARVELAS: The report suggests there was an abandonment of curiosity by
commanding officers towards data sharing, showing massive spikes in enemies
killed in action, as you know. But an absence of wounded insurgents or ADF
casualties- that's the finding I found quite alarming. No curiosity, no
questions. That's disturbing that that was going on at the highest level.

MINISTER CONROY: It's worse than disturbing; it's appalling. And I'm happy to
state that on the record that absence of curiosity contributed to a culture
that allowed these events to occur; it didn't cause those events. The
individuals the Brereton report, obviously canvassed, ultimately made those
decisions to take those actions. But the culture of command led to that, and
that is appalling.

PATRICIA KARVELAS: The report places blame on both the government and the Special
Operations Command for encouraging the belief that the SAS was superior rather
than specialist. How do you fix that?

MINISTER CONROY: Well, we've fixed that to some extent by bringing Special
Operations Command closer to the rest of the ADF, obviously holding people
accountable for their actions during that period. People's careers have
suffered because of the culture that they allowed to exist.

PATRICIA KARVELAS: And are you certain that that would not occur again under this
current organisation of the ADF?

MINISTER CONROY: I'm certain that the command structure is better. There's
greater lines of accountability. I'm certain that the culture is better and we
work every day, like Defence, to make sure the culture is as good as it can be,
that people are focused on the mission of the ADF and that they conduct those
missions in accordance to the laws of the day.

PATRICIA KARVELAS: Repeat deployments are the other issue. People do up to three
tours; they were mentally unwell, and they were put back in that environment.
With the hindsight that comes with a report like this, is that something that
should never occur again?

MINISTER CONROY: Absolutely. It's clear, and this report finds it, that
governments of both persuasions, because the accusations here go back more than
a decade, over-relied on the Special Forces, in particular the Special Air
Service. And that's a lesson that Defence Ministers in future deployments need
to bear in mind.

PATRICIA KARVELAS: Just on one other element, before I move on to subs, which
you've been talking about, just in terms of the secrecy of this report, look,
it's not new, right? Why did it take so long for us to see it? We're only
seeing the executive summary.

MINISTER CONROY: Well, that's a question for the Inspector General. They're
independent and as a Minister of Defence portfolio, be absolutely inappropriate
for me to direct them or.

PATRICIA KARVELAS: How long have you known about the contents of the report?

MINISTER CONROY: Of the actual report? For some time. But ultimately it's up to
the IGADF to decide when they release these reports. That's up to them. That's
their remit, and I'm not going to interfere in that. I know you're not
suggesting that, but I'm not -

PATRICIA KARVELAS: Going to say for some time how much time.

MINISTER CONROY: I'm not going to go into those details, PK.

PATRICIA KARVELAS: Ok, but you've known about the findings in this report and been
privy to its information?

MINISTER CONROY: I've been privy to the need to change accountability, to improve
accountability, to improve culture for some time.

PATRICIA KARVELAS: Also this week, the US named the USS Colorado as the first
Virginia class submarine to be based in Australia as part of AUKUS. Are you
confident you're going to have enough personnel trained to operate it?

MINISTER CONROY: Well, this is for the US to operate as part of Submarine
Rotation Force West. It starts next year. We're hitting every milestone in
AUKUS at the moment, and we're hopeful that will continue to do so. The US
administration, the US system have declared us on track for Surf West next
year. Then obviously we're training Australians right now to run our own
Virginia class when we receive our first in the early 2030s. I've met some of
them in South Carolina that are going through the US training schools now,
topping the classes in many cases. And in fact we've got more than a boatload.
We've got more than equivalent of a Virginia class crew in the US training
system right now.

PATRICIA KARVELAS: I've got to ask you just another question before I just want to
end, Ben Roberts-Smith. Obviously that is going to be before the courts, as it
should be, but can he stand as a candidate at the next election? How do you
feel about that prospect?

MINISTER CONROY: Oh, anyone who is not legally prescribed from standing as a
candidate is welcome to stand.

PATRICIA KARVELAS: So he can stand.

MINISTER CONROY: Well, I have no idea. I'm not a lawyer. There are obviously
certain prohibitions on candidates who are subject to.

PATRICIA KARVELAS: If he's convicted,

MINISTER CONROY: Criminal convictions, but

PATRICIA KARVELAS: He's not convicted yet.

MINISTER CONROY: Yeah, I'm not going to comment on an individual case because
that would be really inappropriate as a general statement of principle. Every
Australian has the right to stand as a candidate for election unless they're
prohibited under law. And I'm not going to comment further.

PATRICIA KARVELAS: And you have no views about where Ben Roberts-Smith should be
running?

MINISTER CONROY: That's the choice for that individual. I'm not going to get
into that matter. I think let's just let everything take its course.

PATRICIA KARVELAS: Okay. One Nation's obviously aligned themselves very closely
with his case and his argument. Are you worried that they'll be galvanising the
defence vote, the veterans community, by doing that?

MINISTER CONROY: Look, I think that this period of time in individual cases have
caused a reckoning for people and that's something that we're all working
through individually and collectively. What I can say is I've found that the attacks
by One Nation on Andrew Hastie, which is obviously related to this period,
disgraceful. To suggest someone like that is a traitor through their ridiculous
cartoons is utterly disgraceful and shows that they're deeply either unserious
people or incredibly cynical to try and mobilise a certain segment of the
population by vilifying a good person who is a patriot, who has served this
nation in uniform and serves in his parliament. Andrew Hastie and I disagree on
many things, if not most things, but to attack him in this way as part of this
whole sort of conflict is utterly appalling. And One Nation can't be taken
seriously on national security or any other matter when they continue to act
like this.

PATRICIA KARVELAS: Just finally, inflation is the biggest story of the week, as you
know, and it looks like we might have an interest rate rise next week.
Yesterday in the program I had Ed Husic on, and he proposed price caps on
groceries as a strategy. With the rising inflation, is that something that you think
is worth pursuing, or on staple goods?

MINISTER CONROY: Well, we're focused on, and we have outlawed or banned price
gouging, which is by our supermarkets, which are using excessive market power
to move prices up and down without reference to actually the cost of those
goods and to exploit consumers. That will help consumers who are going through
a massive cost-of-living challenges at this moment. And we're really focused on
delivering cost of living relief through cheaper medicine, through improving bulk
billing rates, through tax cuts. That's what our focus is, obviously. I'll
welcome all ideas from caucus colleagues.

PATRICIA KARVELAS: What do you think of the idea of price caps on bread, milk?

MINISTER CONROY: Well, A. I should say I'm not the Treasurer.

PATRICIA KARVELAS: I know that. You're in Cabinet, though

MINISTER CONROY: Secondly, I'm really good at pointing out the obvious. I'd be
interested in how it would work. For example, I know the Whitlam government
tried to win a referendum on prices and income control, and they failed. The
Australian people did not support them. So, I'd have questions about how price
control like that would work, to be quite frank.

PATRICIA KARVELAS: I certainly don't have the answers, but I know that there's a
crisis in inflation. Everyone acknowledges that. Are there going to be need to
be deep cuts? 

MINISTER CONROY: Well, the Treasurer's flagged that there will be a savings
package associated with MYEFO. As he stated previously, we've already saved
$180 billion in budget savings that has reduced aggregate demand. But he's
flagged that we're interested in doing more. We'd be in a much worse situation
if the Coalition was in government because the waste and profligacy was
remarkable. But we're focused on budget savings, but also delivering targeted
cost of living relief for Australians who are doing it tough right now.

PATRICIA KARVELAS: Pat Conroy, very kind of you to come into the studio. Thank you.

MINISTER CONROY: My pleasure.

PATRICIA KARVELAS: That was Defence Industry Minister Pat Conroy on the Special
Forces Inquiry. AUKUS and inflation.

ENDS