Television Interview, News 24 Afternoon Agenda

SUBJECTS: MP Safety, Senator Payman Comments, Defence Act Reform 

ASHLEIGH GILLON [HOST]: Well, new legislation to enhance security at Australian Defence sites has been introduced into Parliament. The laws also aim to better protect Australians by boosting capability and Defence preparedness. Joining us live now is the Assistant Defence Minister, Peter Khalil. Thank you so much for your time. We appreciate it. I will get to that legislation in a moment, but first, I just wanted to ask you about question time. You come to us on air fresh from being booted out by the Speaker.

PETER KHALIL [ASSISTANT MINISTER]: Yes. 

GILLON: We’ve heard so much this week in the wake of the Haines attack about the need to lift the tone of debate, of showing respect across the aisle. Those words seem a bit empty when we continue to see politicians being kicked out of question time, don’t they? 

KHALIL: Well, usually you get a warning from the Speaker, but I just said something when Angus Taylor was asking a question. I said, “It was cancelled.” That was the words I used. So I was a bit bemused by his line of questioning. And fair enough, the Speaker said, you know, I was interrupting his question, but it wasn’t anything malevolent or anything like that. I was just saying it was cancelled, so in relation to the visa that he was asking about. So fair enough. And, yes, you know, there’s robust debate in parliament. There’s adversarial system. But as long as it’s respectful, I think that’s appropriate. 

GILLON: Okay, well, the Speaker said your comments were completely out of order, so it sounds like you need to lift your game for tomorrow. Look, on the fallout from the Haines attack, I recall that your electorate office was the target of vandals a couple of years ago. I think we have some pictures of that attack. Your office was doused in red paint by pro-Palestinian protestors. Tell us about the incidents that you’ve experienced, if you’ve had concerns about your personal safety in this job, and what you make of the increased measures that the Prime Minister is proposing this week. 

KHALIL: Look, Ash, all of us, I think, many MPs have experienced a whole range of security threats and incidents. My office also likewise has experienced that, including my staff, which has been very difficult for them. Again, I’ve always said publicly that people have every right to protest on any issue so long as it is respectful, it’s peaceful, and it doesn’t resort to acts of violence or intimidation or harassment against people doing their job. I think that was completely unacceptable: the actions taken against my office and my staff, who are working every day to support the community, to help them have a better life. So that was just completely out of order. And with all of this, I think the main point that I’ve made is that we in a democracy have to navigate our differences without resorting to threats or violence, certainly not violence, but do it in a way which is peaceable. I mean, fundamentally, we are all committed to the idea of Australia, which is a diverse society that is a democracy where we can – you know, we can exchange views, have differences but find consensus in the end through a peaceful process, which is the democratic process. But people have to commit to that idea. The thing that concerned me most, Ash, is that there is a significant minority of the population that consider that violence is a legitimate form of political expression. It never is. It doesn’t work. It just leads to more violence and more hatred. And that’s something that all of us – not just the political leadership, but the community leaders, every citizen in Australia – has a commitment to, to make sure that even when you disagree – and we are going to disagree, we’re human beings – that we can navigate those differences in a peaceable way. 

GILLON: The Independent Senator, Senator Payman, has linked that Haines attack to her own campaign for extra staff. She’s been criticised for that in some quarters for politicising the incident. But why hasn’t she been given more staff? She seems to think it’s got a lot to do with the fact that she defected from the Labor Party. 

KHALIL: Well, Ash, I think it was great – it was correct that Karen Grogan called her out and Senator Farrell called that out. Because what I’ll say about that incident is this: what happened to Helen Haines is horrific. We all know that. What we have spent the time as parliamentarians and the broader community in the last couple of – in the last week and certainly the last couple of days in Canberra is focusing on Helen, focusing on Phil, focusing on their family, focusing on the community that is in a degree of pain given what’s happened. And that is right to do so. I think it’s just a question of character here and basic decency that you don’t use the tragedy of what happened to Helen and the horror – horrific incident to score political points. You can have a debate about whatever you disagree about, which is, you know, staffing or whatever it might be – and I’m not commenting on the merits or otherwise of the debate – but using – you know, trying to use the incident that Helen has experienced and the horrific nature of that to score political points, I think is just a question of character – or lack of. 

GILLON: Okay, let’s look at this defence legislation I mentioned in the introduction. I understand a big focus of that is preventing drone attacks. Tell us what this will mean in practice. Is it that authorities can actually shoot down drones if they’re somewhere they shouldn’t be? What does this cover? Is it just defence spaces or is it also other high-risk areas – airports, prisons, other critical infrastructure? How will it work in practice? 

KHALIL: These reforms are important, Ash, because you’ve seen a real uptick in the use of drones in sabotage, espionage, potential attacks as well. We’ve seen incursions into defence space. So these reforms create what’s called a Defence security framework to give us, the defence personnel, the capabilities to deal with those incursions. I signed off regulations late last year, given the increased threat vector. This is the legislative authority that gives it a solid basis, and it’s not just an interim measure but through legislation. These threats have increased, and we need to make sure that we are protecting our defence personnel and our defence sites from such incursions that are increasing. So it is an important set of reforms, and I would hope that it passes through Parliament with the support of most of the opposition and others. 

GILLON: Okay. So do people need to know that these drones can be shot down if deemed a risk? And when we’re talking about that risk and it increasing, are we talking about criminal groups, are we talking about state-based actors? How would you characterise that risk? 

KHALIL: Yeah, it’s a good question. I mean, there’s a multiplicity of potential actors who may be involved in utilising drones and incursions into defence space, into airfields and defence bases. The act of disabling the drones, it could be disarming electronically interfering with them if they pose a threat to the base, if there’s a serious physical threat to the base, to personnel, or to parts of the base if they come into the airspace of the base, the zone, if you like, that is declared, which will be across all of our defence facilities and bases. And there are different ways that you can respond or have powers to respond to those incursions. It’s not always shooting them down; it may be disabling them in some way to remove the risk. There are capabilities there that can be utilised to bring down drones if they pose a threat, if they’re conducting surveillance or intelligence gathering where they shouldn’t be, if they pose a physical threat, there are other ways to deal with them. 

GILLON: Peter Khalil, I appreciate you making the time. Thank you. 

KHALIL: Thanks, Ash.

ENDS