Television Interview, ABC Insiders

SUBJECTS: China's missile test; missile defence investment; NATO summit; Pacific diplomacy; India; artificial intelligence.

PATRICIA KARVELAS, HOST: Pat Conroy, welcome to the program.

PAT CONROY, MINISTER FOR DEFENCE INDUSTRY: Thanks for having me.

KARVELAS: Has China shown that it is both capable of reaching the Australian mainland or any Pacific nation now through its nuclear test this week?

CONROY: Well, China possesses a very long-range missile capability, both conventionally armed and nuclear armed. There's no disagreement there. What we're seeing in the region is the biggest arms race, the biggest build up of military since 1945. And concerningly that is occurring without any transparency or strategic reassurance. So, that is the context that we face and that's why the Australian Government is pursuing diplomacy and as our first course but also providing the biggest increase in our defence funding in peacetime ever. We need to do both: invest in our defence and invest in our diplomacy.

KARVELAS: What's the nightmare scenario that you see unfolding in the Pacific?

CONROY: Well, a nightmare scenario is obviously conflict in our region. We have to be careful about not getting into hypotheticals. But I highlighted when I represented Australia at the NATO summit this week that a conflict in the Indo Pacific would be catastrophic for the globe, not just our region. And we must do all we can to prevent that. That's both through diplomatic means and through deterrence by investing in the Australian Defence Force.

KARVELAS: And do we have the capability, minister, to shoot down one of these missiles if this were to occur?

CONROY: We're investing record amounts in missile defence. Let me give you a couple of examples. We brought forward by four years the introduction into service of the Standard Missile 6. This is a critical air defence missile for our navy. We brought it forward four years compared to the plans of the previous government. We're investing $30 billion in missile defence through our National Defence Strategy we released this year, including increasing by 400% our investment in active missile defence interceptors.

KARVELAS: To down missiles, if a scenario like this, a nightmare scenario, … were to unfold in the Pacific in the next few years, we wouldn't be able to shoot a missile like this down, would we?

CONROY: Well, it's important not to go into too many hypotheticals. That's not what I…

KARVELAS: But you did raise it in your, your speech this week?

CONROY: But let me talk about our capabilities. For example, so we have SM6 missiles on our Air Warfare Destroyers. We're upgrading the combat system, the Aegis combat system, so that they can provide even more advanced missile defence for Australia. We've introduced into service the NASAMS missile defence system that's equipping the army right now. We've got a range of other capabilities to intercept missiles, but we need to do more and that's why we're investing $30 billion in it, including a 400 per cent increase in our active missile defence investment, including introducing medium range ground based air defence systems.

KARVELAS: So, we are vulnerable now. I know you're saying these investments are being made right now where China is flexing its muscle and demonstrating what it could do. Obviously this was a test, a dummy, but could do. If this were to happen, we're completely vulnerable.

CONROY: Well, we've got a range of capabilities in service right now. The Standard Missile 6 is one example. We've got other systems in place and we're doing more. The critical thing is you can't stand still. This is a race where we need to make sure that the Australian Defence Force has the best possible equipment. And that's why we're providing the biggest peacetime increase in defence funding ever. We're getting on with doing it, but we've got good capabilities now that we are improving right now as well.

KARVELAS: You represented Australia, you just referenced this at the NATO conference and you spoke behind closed doors to your fellow ministers, defence ministers. You said even a limited conflict over Taiwan or significant disruption to trade and supply chains would damage Euro Atlantic interests and have far reaching global consequences. Are we prepared for a conflict over Taiwan?

CONROY: Well, again, we're prepared for a conflict in our region. Everyone is working very hard to avoid it. My main message to NATO is that the conflicts are no longer local, they're global. We're seeing that right now. We're feeling the, the impact of the conflict in Ukraine. And my message to NATO was a conflict in the Pacific, in the Pacific would have a similar impact on Europe and the future of NATO, and the Indo Pacific Four, which is South Korea, Japan, Australia and New Zealand, are inseparable and we need to work together.

KARVELAS: And did that risk of that kind of conflict, did that go up a notch this week through this demonstration of their reach and power, the Chinese?

CONROY: Well, it certainly was a provocative action and it destabilised our region. And it's something that we have expressed our concern and to the Chinese government. So, again, the impact of it in terms of the stability of the region

KARVELAS: And is there any consequence …to us raising concerns? What response has the Australian Government got? Do you have any assurances that we’ll be given more warning next time, for instance?

CONROY: Well, again, I'm not going to get into detailing confidential discussions between governments. We don't engage in megaphone diplomacy, but we've expressed our concern, we've expressed our concern to the Chinese Government at a number of levels and we'll keep doing that. I think importantly, it has hurt China's standing in our region. You have to look at the response from Pacific nations, from the prime minister of the Solomon Islands, saying that it is not an act of a friend, to comments from the Fiji and the Papua New Guinea Government, the prime minister, the president of Palau, the prime minister of Tuvalu. I don't think this was conducive to China's standing in the region and I think it was a provocative action.

KARVELAS: The Solomon Islands Prime Minister says there is growing consensus for a broader regional security agreement. Did China's action, has it emboldened nations, including Australia, to sign a broader agreement now?

CONROY: Well, I think it demonstrates again that Pacific security can only be provided by from within the Pacific. That's the essence of leaders’ communiques over a number of Pacific Island Forums and we're up for that conversation. The policy the Albanese Labor Government in the Pacific is we turn up, we listen to the priorities of Pacific leaders and we act on them. And that's why we've got two more alliances than we did a couple of years ago. That's why our standing in the region has improved massively. Australia is now safer and more secure because of the actions of Prime Minister Albanese in the Pacific.

KARVELAS: So, just to be clear …this idea for a regional security agreement, are you actively working towards it now?

CONROY: Well, we're up for it, but importantly, it needs to be driven by Prime Minister Wale, given he's the current chair of the Pacific Islands Forum and he's… the one…

KARVELAS: He says he does want to do that. What has he asked of Australia to try and accelerate it happening?

CONROY: Well, again, I don't get into confidential discussions between governments. That's not how we engage in diplomacy. But Prime Minister Wale has said it's in the region's interests and he intends to pursue this at the PIF Leaders’ Summit coming up in late August. This would take a number of years if the rest of the Pacific was up for it. But ultimately it's a decision of all the Pacific leaders. We act on a consensus approach, but importantly, we've now got an alliance that's come into effect with Papua New Guinea, an alliance we've signed with Fiji, we've signed landmark security treaties with Vanuatu, with the Nakamal, with Tuvalu, with Nauru. Australia has a range of treaties and agreements that mean that we're safer now than we were four years ago.

KARVELAS: Would it? You say it's up to them to lead it. Is it in Australia's interest? Will you be going into that PIF pushing for it to happen? Are you committed to it happening?

CONROY: Well, it's in Australia's interest because it's consistent with both our policy in the Pacific, but the whole PIF approach, which is that if there's gaps in security within the Pacific, the Pacific should ask other Pacific nations to fill them. And that's the strong policy of the Albanese Labor Government. That's why we've signed alliances and treaties with a range of governments. We're up for the conversation. But importantly, this should be driven by the Pacific leaders and the Pacific people.

KARVELAS: Your message … is we're on board, you drive it, but Australia is on board?

CONROY: Absolutely. That's a good summation of it. It would be consistent with our approach to individual countries. We're proud to be the security partner of choice for the Pacific, just as we are the development partner of choice. This is all about peace and stability in our region. Australia's peace and prosperity depends upon a stable, peaceful and prosperous Pacific. And we're working every day to engineer that.

KARVELAS: Minister, you've also announced a new agreement with India. It traverses a couple of different things, but India is not a signatory to the Nuclear Non-Proliferation Treaty yet. And this week you've agreed to sell them our uranium. Why are you so confident that it won't assist India in its nuclear program?

CONROY: Well, the visit by Prime Minister Modi was a landmark event in the relationship between the two countries. We've been working even closer together over the last four years. India is a rising global power, the biggest democracy in the world, and is a force for good on the international stage. And we want to work closely together with them. In terms of your question about uranium exports, this has been agreed for some time. What caused the delay was getting in place… safeguards to deal with the question you asked.

KARVELAS: But they’re still not a signatory to that agreement. And it was our criteria that you had to be a signatory for us to sell uranium. Why have you bent the rules for India?

CONROY: Well, governments of both persuasions, both the Liberal government and our government, have been working towards putting in place safeguards so that we are confident that the uranium will only be used for their domestic energy production. We're satisfied that the systems are in place for that and that's why we've been in the position to reach the agreement.

KARVELAS: Minister, one of the arguments that's being used is if they can use more of our uranium for their domestic energy use, frees up uranium for their nuclear program. Isn't that a risk?

CONROY: Well, we're responsible for what our uranium is used for…. What India does with its uranium is a question for them. Obviously, we call for nuclear non-proliferation. We call for a world where nuclear weapons are not used and are safeguarded.

KARVELAS: We're making it easier.

CONROY: How? Well, ultimately we're responsible for our uranium and we're very confident that it will be used for peaceful energy production. And that's what we're responsible for. And we're taking care of that as good international citizens.

KARVELAS: Just a couple of other issues. Five Eyes cyber agencies have issued a warning that AI is rapidly transforming cyber risk. Not in years, but in months. Is the warning. Is the government spending more on submarines than it is our ability to deal with a foreign cyber attack?

CONROY: No, we're not. We're investing in both. PK, this is a really challenging sort of frontier of technology. And that statement by the Five Eyes cybersecurity agency was a historic event. That's why we're providing record investments in in the Australian Signals Directorate through Project Red Spice. This is rapidly upgrading the capabilities of the Australian Signals Directorate to defend Australia against not just traditional cyber intrusions, but AI-generated cyber attacks as well as providing them with other capabilities.

KARVELAS: And would you agree a cyber attack is actually a much bigger risk than any other kind of attack we could face in coming months or so years?

CONROY: Well, again, we have a range of attacks, sorts of risks. Some are conventional military attacks, others are cyber attacks by both governments and non state actors. And that's why we're investing in both the ASD as well as AUKUS, as well as the Australian Defence Force as a whole. Good governments need to do all those things. And that's what we're doing, investing in our cyber defences as well as our conventional defence.

KARVELAS: Okay, On Wednesday, the Prime Minister will give a landmark speech about the future use and guardrails around artificial intelligence in our country. There are many elements of it, as I've been briefed, but there is an element in relation to defence. Are you worried about companies dictating how their technology is used in Australian defence?

CONROY: Well, AI is obviously a huge challenge for all sectors of our society, including defence. It's important that we do three things: we have to seize the opportunities of AI, we can't be left behind while other countries dominate in this area. Secondly, we need to make sure that we spread the benefits of AI to workers and the broader community.

KARVELAS: If I can bring you back to the Australian side, to the defence element, there are risks out there of AI in defence. And is the speech going to outline how the Australian Government will deal with it?

CONROY: Well, again, I'm not going to get ahead of the Prime Minister's speech. It's for him to make those statements. But you're absolutely right, there are risks of AI to defence as well as opportunities. That's why we established a defence AI centre in 2024 under this government. That's why we've put in place a number of safeguards. But importantly, we're also seizing the opportunities. We lead the world in large autonomous systems like the Ghost Bat collaborative combat aircraft, the first combat aircraft designed and built in this country in 50 years, as well as the Ghost Shark extra large underwater autonomous vessel, that is a robot submarine. Both of these autonomous systems are making Australia safer by coming into service with the Australian Defence Force as well as generating thousands of jobs in Australia. So, AI is both a risk and an opportunity and you need to deal with it. You can't run and hide away from it. You've got to engage in it. Australia led the world in engaging technology in other areas, such as the social media ban. And Prime Minister Albanese’s speech on Wednesday will outline our broader approach to AI, including in defence.

KARVELAS: Minister, many thanks for joining us on Insiders.

CONROY: Thanks PK. Have a great day.

ENDS