Television Interview, ABC Afternoon Briefing

SUBJECTS: Australia-India Defence Cooperation; Australia-India Annual Summit; Chinese Missile Test-Firing; Middle East Conflict; Telstra Outage.

PATRICIA KARVELAS, HOST: For more on this, I spoke to the Deputy Prime Minister and Defence Minister Richard Marles who was fresh from the leaders’ summit with the Indian Prime Minister Narendra Modi. Richard Marles, welcome to Afternoon Briefing.

RICHARD MARLES, DEPUTY PRIME MINISTER: Good afternoon Patricia.

KARVELAS: You've announced a new joint cooperation agreement to strengthen defence cooperation with India, to focus particularly on maritime security. What does that actually look like in practice? What will change?

MARLES: Well firstly, the defence relationship with India is hugely significant and is growing very rapidly. You know, in a very challenging and volatile world our relationship with India has never been more important. We've never had a greater shared strategic alignment. So that it is a significant part of the leaders’ meetings today is very important. In terms of the specific answer to your question, a large part of what we do in the context of defence is indeed maritime cooperation. We share an ocean and specifically the northeast Indian Ocean. So this is about making sure that we have greater interoperability between our platforms, for example our P‑8 aircraft, which is a maritime surveillance platform – we operate it out of our Air Force, India also operates the platform out of their navy. We're trying to make sure that all of that is more interoperable but also that we can share the data, the information, what we're observing, if you like, from our various platforms so that we are building out our joint domain awareness. And that gives us– well, it amplifies both of our countries ability to have a sense of what is happening in our waters and therefore being able to respond. But it's not– I mean maritime is the big part of it, but it isn't just maritime. I mean really over the last 12 years our defence exercises with India have tripled and that has principally been in the maritime domain. But for example, India participated in Exercise Talisman Sabre last year. We anticipate they'll do so again next year – we do it every two years – and do so at a much greater level. We're doing more between our air forces. So this is a very deep relationship now. 

KARVELAS: Is this, like your deals in the Pacific that you've been signing, part of creating a buffer against China in the Indo‑Pacific?

MARLES: Well, I think the way to think about it is that in a much more challenging world this is about doubling down with friends, for sure. I mean India is just on a different scale to anything that we're doing in the Pacific and the Pacific is of course very important, I mean it's very close. But we do share an ocean with India and, you know, I think India's growth in defence capability has been very significant over the last decade and more and it will be even more significant going forward. And as two countries which do share values, I mean we are both democracies, we both have freedom of speech, we are both about the maintenance of the rules‑based order and that is very much the rules of the road at sea and in that shared ocean. This is about making sure that we are taking every advantage that we can of what is a profoundly important relationship for us. And I think if you– sorry–

KARVELAS: No, no. Well, I'm interested in the extent to which the signing of this is also a rebuke to China over its behaviour earlier this week. How significant is that and did you talk about that in these talks?

MARLES: Well, you know what China has been doing more generally in terms of its very significant military build‑up, but a military build‑up which is happening without strategic reassurance is part of a conversation between our two countries, in other words between Australia and India. And obviously what we saw in terms of that Chinese test over the course of the last few days is certainly an example of that. And that's how we should see it. And it was a very concerning test. I mean, I guess I would want to make clear, I was in India a month ago with my counterpart Minister Rajnath Singh and we were working on the components of the defence pillar of this meeting back then. So what's been signed today has actually been a work in progress for some time. So, it's not– these things aren't specifically aligned but, you know, there is definitely a shared sense of concern about China testing a long‑range missile capability which they have said could carry a nuclear warhead, which was launched from a submarine, which has its own implications in terms of extended range, extended Chinese reach – and all of that is of enormous concern.

KARVELAS: Of course it is. Do you think Beijing crossed the line and what are the ramifications? What does Australia do to send the message other than words?

MARLES: Well, words matter but we're doing more than that. I mean, if you look at what we are doing in terms of our own increase in defence capability, you know, we're engaging in the biggest peacetime increase in defence capability in our country's history. But we are also building defence relationships with our neighbours and countries within the region. And I guess in that sense you're right to point out what we've been doing, the Vuvale Union with Fiji is an example of that, but today is an example as well. I mean, building that defence relationship with India is part of what we are seeking to do to increase our overall defence relationships with countries in our immediate neighbourhood and in our, what we describe as our military regions of interest, and that is specifically Northeast Indian Ocean, Southeast Asia and the Pacific. And when we talk about Northeast Indian Ocean, at the heart of that is India. So the Indian defence relationship is a critical part of how we are responding to our strategic landscape and we have consistently said that this is the most complex and in many ways the most threatening strategic landscape that we have faced. And part of that is the fact that China is engaging in the biggest conventional military build‑up that the world has seen since the end of the Second World War and they are doing that without strategic reassurance.

KARVELAS: And was there evidence in the last week, Minister, that that had gone up a notch? I mean, how concerned are you by this behaviour?

MARLES: Well, we're concerned and we consistently express that concern. I mean, you know, for example at the Shangri‑La Dialogue, which I've been attending since 2022, this has been a repeated message that we give in what is a very important forum and a forum which, not this year, but in the past has included China in it. I see the test that's occurred earlier this week as part of that continuum. So to be clear, this is an extension of the test that they did in 2024 where they also then did a long‑range missile test into the Pacific but it's just another example of China growing its military capability but importantly growing the reach of that capability–

KARVELAS: Do you think that behaviour, what we saw, actually makes it more likely that more Pacific nations will cooperate with us? Do you think that will be the reaction from seeing that?

MARLES: Well, I don't think– I certainly think there'll be a very dim reaction in the Pacific to this test by China, for sure. I would want to though, answer that question by saying for a long time, you know, I've been arguing, but we have been arguing that it is Australia's place to seek to be the partner of choice, and that includes the security of partner of choice for the countries of the Pacific. And we need to engage in that endeavour on our own terms. You know, whatever else is going on in the world, that should be the case. This is our immediate neighbourhood. You know, for good or ill, Australia is rightly judged by the way in which it engages with the Pacific and it's really important that we play our role. And I think in past years that's not always been the case. I think one of the real areas of pride that we have in the Albanese Government over the last four years is that we really have made a step change in our relationship with the Pacific and whatever else is going on in the world, that's been a very important thing for us to do.

KARVELAS: Minister, did you discuss the resumption of hostilities between the US and Iran with Narendra Modi? And did you ask India to use its influence to help manage hostilities between the US and Iran?

MARLES: Look, I probably won't go into all that was said specifically and leave those statements to the two Prime Ministers themselves. What I would say from the Australian government's point of view is simply that, you know, we want to see a de‑escalation, of course, in what's been playing out in the Middle East. We've been saying that for some time. We welcome, of course, the ceasefire that has been in place now for some time and we don't want to see that broken. We want to see the ceasefire continue. Part of that, of course, is, you know, Iran needs to be allowing traffic through the Strait of Hormuz. That is really important–

KARVELAS: But the ceasefire is over. Don't you agree with President Trump? He says it's over. I mean it's quite clearly escalated again.

MARLES: Well, I mean, clearly the events have played out overnight. That's there for all to see. We want to see a de‑escalation. We definitely want to see an opening of the Strait of Hormuz. It's very important that Iran meets its obligations here in terms of allowing freedom of navigation. It is utterly unacceptable that the Strait of Hormuz be closed. But we do want to see a de‑escalation here–

KARVELAS: But now that Hormuz is closed again, you're already tapering out, of course, the fuel excise over the next month. Will you revisit that given the impact it's having obviously on fuel?

MARLES: Well, I think we need to just let events play out more than what we've seen in the last 24 hours. I think one of the lessons of the last few months, but it's always the case, is that you can't immediately react to everything that you see in the moment. It's really important to just to understand how events are going to play out. But obviously we are monitoring all of this very closely to see where ultimately this all goes. You know, we are hopeful that in fact we continue to see a relative pace in the Middle East. But, you know, the events of last night have obviously played out as they have, and we will continue to watch this very closely.

KARVELAS: And you're watching it closely, but it's all but over. I mean, we have to be honest with people. This is unfolding in a way that is going to no doubt wreak potential havoc, again. What are the contingencies that the Government's planning? If the Strait of Hormuz is closed again, given all of the talk we've had about the impact on fuel, on supplies, doesn't it escalate all that risk once again?

MARLES: Well, the Strait of Hormuz being closed is a bad scenario, not just for Australia, but for the world. That's to state the obvious. It's also to state the obvious that what has been developed over the last few months is a whole range of contingencies and scenarios based on what levels of fuel supply there is in the world. But I would also point out that what we managed to do over the months from the end of February really through until now is in fact to maintain fuel supply to Australia and indeed be in a position where there's more fuel in the country today than there was immediately prior to that first bombing that occurred back in February of this year. So we are very much seized with what needs to be done, and we know what needs to be done. In terms of what does last night mean? Let's just see how it plays out over the course of the next few days and weeks. But we are all over the various scenarios and contingencies that might occur and are ready to act. And I think Australians can look at what we've done over the last few months to have a sense of confidence about that.

KARVELAS: Minister, just finally, obviously, the Telstra outage is having huge ramifications across the nation. We had passengers stranded, trains not operating, commuter chaos, businesses affected, individuals affected, people trying to call Triple Zero affected. If, as the Government has said, this was not a cyber attack, what does that mean if we did face a large-scale cyber attack?

MARLES: Well, I think what I'd want to say about that is that in our agencies, such as the Australian Signals Directorate, we really have amongst the best agencies literally in the world in terms of being able to provide expertise but also fundamentally, cyber defence for our nation. And ASD, for example, on the question of cyber defence works really closely with the private sector, but those companies specifically, such as the telecommunications companies which are–

KARVELAS: Doesn’t it show how vulnerable we are given, we've been told, Five Eyes have warned about this being an emerging issue, are we not more vulnerable than we've ever been after we've seen this unfold? And allegedly this is not even that kind of attack.

MARLES: Well, I mean, Telstra have made clear that that's not what's happened here. And so in that sense, we are actually looking at something which is different to a cyber attack and it's important to make that clear. I think it's really, you know, I think those of us who are elected to public office need to assume some responsibility that comes with this office and I think what we've seen from the Opposition and the Opposition Leader particularly around this is, in my view, really irresponsible in terms of the way in which they've engaged in commentary. But this is not a cyber attack. That's what Telstra have made clear in terms of how they are working through what has occurred here. But at a more general level, Australians should have a sense of confidence that in the Australian Signals Directorate and the other agencies that we have in this country, they are amongst the very best in the world. Literally, other countries look to them for advice about how to deal with this. And we are working very closely with major companies which oversee our critical infrastructure around a contingency of a cyber attack, and so they should have confidence about that. But to be clear, we're not sanguine about any of this. We are working day and night to make sure that we have the very best cyber defences in the world.

KARVELAS: Thank you so much for joining us, Minister.

MARLES: Thanks, Patricia.