Television Interview, Sky News Australia

SUBJECTS: AUKUS; nuclear-powered submarines

PETER STEFANOVIC, HOST: You're with First Edition on this Wednesday morning, folks. Thanks for your company. Well, the Defence Minister, Richard Marles last night put up a strident defence of AUKUS after criticism over the pact from one his own party. Joining us this morning is the Defence Industry Minister, Pat Conroy, the Shadow Defence Industry Minister, Phillip Thompson. Good morning to you, gentlemen. Yeah, so AUKUS is going to take centre stage today, and for good reason too. So Pat, there's a growing group now of Labor MPs, former ministers, Teal independents, unionists, who've questioned the future of AUKUS. Will you stare that down or stare that revolt down and guarantee the future of AUKUS?

PAT CONROY, MINISTER FOR DEFENCE INDUSTRY: Well, one backbench MP has raised his views, and that's his right in a democracy, but AUKUS is full steam ahead, it's been confirmed by the Caucus in 2021, it's been confirmed by the Shadow Cabinet in ‘21, the actual Cabinet in ‘23, and an overwhelming endorsement at our National Conference. We're delivering it because it's in the national interest, we're delivering something that the Coalition announced but didn't have any details, and we're getting on with delivering it, driving 20,000 jobs, acquiring the most advanced nuclear propelled, conventionally-armed submarines in the world in partnership with the UK and the US.

STEFANOVIC: So that backbench MP, I mean Ed Husic, he carries some weight still, he argues that because the terms changed the deal might need to be at least revisited. So is that something that is going to happen, or just flat out no?

CONROY: Well, I respect Ed, but in this he's got his facts wrong. When Caucus presented AUKUS in 2021 it was a proposal to build nuclear-powered, conventionally-armed submarines in Adelaide as part of the trilateral pact. The Virginias weren't in the mix at that time because there was no detail from the then Coalition government, 'cause they don't provide details, 'cause nothing worked out. We developed the Virginias an interim step to fill the capability gap left to us by the Coalition in 2023. So, Caucus voted in ‘21. So, the claim that the Virginia changed the approach is somehow undermining a vote in ‘21 doesn't bear any resemblance to reality. What I can say to you is the Caucus, the Cabinet, National Conference, have overwhelmingly endorsed this because it's in our national interest. We're getting on with delivering it, and that's all there is to say about it.

STEFANOVIC: Okay, Phil, does that put any concerns that you might have to bed?

PHILLIP THOMPSON, SHADOW MINISTER FOR DEFENCE INDUSTRY: No, it doesn't, and Pat left out a key person here. Josh Wilson is an assistant minister, he's a minister in the Government and he doesn't support AUKUS.  So, we've got a minister inside the Government that is not supportive of this. Now we've got Ed Husic, a power broker within the Labor Party, a former senior cabinet minister who also doesn't support it. It holds a lot of concern within the Coalition of the direction of AUKUS because, you know, at the moment we're seeing the fracture within the Labor Party itself. You've got former senior Labor ministers, Peter Garrett out there, saying that there should be a review, and he doesn't support it, and all the Labor Party people are the ones that are coming out saying that they don't support AUKUS. So, I think we need a bit more than the Caucus back in the day said it's okay.

CONROY: Well, we've got more than that, with respect to Phil. Like we had around an 80 per cent yes vote at National Conference, which for an issue as contentious as this is an overwhelming endorsement. The National Conference is the supreme policy making body of the Australian Labor Party. It's endorsed it and the Albanese Labor Government is getting on with creating those 20,000 jobs by delivering AUKUS, submarine --   

THOMPSON: Josh Wilson's a minister though.

CONROY: Josh Wilson --   

THOMPSON: Can ministers go against the Government now?

CONROY: Josh Wilson is a valued assistant minister, and he's bound by the decisions of National Conference. He's spoken at debate against that, and that's what you do in a vibrant party democracy, but then we're all bound by those decisions, and that's Josh's position as a member of the Albanese Caucus.

THOMPSON: But no --

CONROY: We're proud to be delivering this project 'cause it's in our national interest. We're fixing up the mistakes on defence procurement that the Morrison Government made. They had nine years and they did bugger all quite frankly, and we're getting on with delivering this, delivering 20,000 jobs in giving the Royal Australian Navy the best possible capability to deter conflict in our region.

STEFANOVIC: Okay. Phil, if you have concerns about the deal going ahead, it's the Americans here who have actually changed the rules, so should some of your consternation be reserved for the US?

THOMPSON: Well, I'm glad that you know that it's the Americans that changed the rules, because we've been sitting in the dark here going from, you know, who's made this decision or requested where we've gone to when it comes to getting used submarines. So, I'm glad that you've been told that, Pete. But we have concerns that inside the Government, government ministers, whether they lack conviction to stand up outside of their own beliefs or whether they're a senior minister - a former senior minister saying that we shouldn't be doing it, that creates some concerns. We want to work with the Government collaboratively to make sure that AUKUS gets rolled out and gets done in a timely manner. We do have questions around certain funding and about how there should be a bit more spent in certain areas, but we want to work together in our national interests.

CONROY: Well, Pete, if I can jump in there. By Phil's convoluted logic, because a former Liberal Prime Minister, Malcolm Turnbull, is opposed to AUKUS, that means the Liberal Party doesn't support it.

THOMPSON: Hang on, but he's --   

CONROY: That's not true.

THOMPSON: -- Josh is a minister in the Government.

CONROY: But that's the logic - your logic is a former minister is --   

THOMPSON: Who's a party member.

CONROY: -- concerned about AUKUS, somehow means that we don't support AUKUS. The same logic applies --   

THOMPSON: It doesn't, 'cause he's --   

CONROY: -- to Malcolm Turnbull.

THOMPSON: -- a former Member of Parliament.

CONROY: But Pete, on your broader point, it was a joint decision to move from two in service submarines and one new to three in-service Virginias. We've made it very clear that that was our preferred position when we were negotiating this arrangement in ‘22 and ‘23.

STEFANOVIC: Was it really your preferred arrangement, your agreement?

CONROY: Absolutely. The logic - absolutely, it was preferred preference, because it made maintenance simpler, it made operation simpler, it was easier to manage the configuration across three submarines of the same type, and also by getting a submarine around six or seven years into its service life it had dealt with all the teething issues and gone through its first depot level maintenance. This means we'll have cheaper submarines to maintain and run, simpler submarines and more effective submarines --   

STEFANOVIC: Okay.

CONROY: -- because all the kinks have been ironed out.

STEFANOVIC: Can you go to five? Can you go to five, Pat, can we go to five Virginia-class subs; is that possible now?

CONROY: That option still remains, that option still remains, but we're not envisaging we're needing that, because we're hitting every major milestone including to deliver SSN-AUKUS.

STEFANOVIC: Right.

CONROY: We've announced the $30 billion to build the shipyard at Osborne, I've visited UK and seen the first parts for our first two reactors for our first two submarines being made right now. I've physically seen parts that will go into our first two submarines. So, we're on track for SSN-AUKUS, the first to be delivered in the early 2040s, so we're not anticipating needing to negotiate for Virginias four and five, but that option still remains.

THOMPSON: On the East Coast base, would you have it in your electorate? You would, wouldn't you? East Coast base?

CONROY: I'd be delighted to have it in my electorate.

THOMPSON: Mmm.

STEFANOVIC: Okay.

CONROY: But we're going across the whole East Coast, because quite frankly --   

THOMPSON: You need to build --    

CONROY: Quite frankly, you need to do the homework, Phil.

THOMPSON: Ah --    

CONROY: -- you didn't do the - another announcement.

STEFANOVIC: Just a final point, Pat, can the Americans be trusted going forward now that the goalposts have been shifted once?

CONROY: This is another case of the current US Administration confirming support for AUKUS. Again, President Trump said full steam ahead --    

STEFANOVIC: You're changing the rules - changing the rules - tweaking the rules.

CONROY: -- and now - no, no, I'm not changing the rules. Actually, agreeing to our preferred approach. They arrived at new data, they've improved their maintenance performance of their in-service Virginias, which meant that they felt comfortable releasing a third in-service submarine. So, this is the Trump Administration confirming support for AUKUS, saying, "Yes, your preferred approach is now our preferred approach." This is a win for Australia and it's a win for AUKUS.

STEFANOVIC: Is it a win for Phil Thompson?

THOMPSON: Oh --   

CONROY: Every day's a win for Phil Thompson.

THOMPSON: Every day being here is a win, Pete, and being on a panel with Pat is also a win.

STEFANOVIC: Okay.

THOMPSON: I did a bit of research before, you know, and I looked up what, you know, Pat's bio, and it says, you know, "Loves long walks on the beach, likes rugby league, Albanese's best friend, but also he loves cooking". And any which way he cooks everything that he is saying, it just doesn't stack up.

CONROY: That was the most unfortunate metaphor in the history of politics, Phil.

THOMPSON: Well, you know, you've been Julian Hill today, so you've had to jump on --

CONROY: 10 out of 10 for effort, zero out of 10 for execution.

STEFANOVIC: I'd do it again.

THOMPSON: Have you got a question?

STEFANOVIC: I like it.

THOMPSON: This is good.

STEFANOVIC: I like it. Pat, Phil, appreciate it. We'll talk again soon.

ENDS