Radio Interview, ABC Melbourne Mornings

SUBJECTS: Conflict in the Middle East; Travel Advice. 

RAF EPSTEIN, HOST: Richard Marles is the Deputy Prime Minister and Defence Minister in Anthony Albanese's government. Good morning.

RICHARD MARLES, DEPUTY PRIME MINISTER: Good morning, Raf. How are you?

EPSTEIN: There'll be some pretty nervous households around the country, Richard Marles. Is this the start of something like World War III?

MARLES: I don't think it serves to speculate in those terms. I mean, this is an action which has been taken by the United States and Israel. It is about ensuring that Iran is never in a position to acquire a nuclear capability. If Iran ever did acquire a nuclear capability, that would be a very bad day for the world. And in that sense, we very much support this action in preventing Iran from moving down that path. You know, beyond that, I think what we've seen in the last month or so is people protesting in Iran, brave Iranians, thousands of whom have lost their life at the hands of an autocratic and oppressive regime. And we very much in this moment stand with the Iranian people.

EPSTEIN: Is Australia going to get involved?

MARLES: Well, this is an action which has been taken by the United States and Israel. We're not involved, and it's as simple as that. Having said that, you know, we support preventing Iran from acquiring this capability and we very much stand with the Iranian people.

EPSTEIN: It could get bigger. That's why I asked the involvement question. Wars in the Middle East tend, or can get bigger. Is there any possibility that Australia would be involved if it went on for longer?

MARLES: Well again, I don't think it serves to speculate. It certainly doesn't serve for me to speculate on those questions. Right now, we're seeing this action take place by the US and Israel, and we will see that unfold. I mean, our focus really is on the significant consular challenge that we have in the region. There's about 115,000 Australians who are across the Middle East region, and that includes Australians who are in Iran and in Israel, and in the UAE and Doha in Qatar. And both of those places have been the subject of Iranian retaliation strikes. So, you know, we're very focused on that, as we are, of course, on the Australian personnel in the region. And we've got just over 100 Australian servicemen and women who are in the region.

EPSTEIN: Do you think what America and Israel have done is illegal?

MARLES: What is not acceptable is to see Iran acquire this capability. The UN Security Council has made that clear over a very long period of time. It's also clear that Iran cannot be trusted in respect of its actions in relation to not acquiring a nuclear capability. Preventing Iran from acquiring this is very important– 

EPSTEIN: You haven't said anything about what America and Israel have done though. Do you think that– does the government have a view on whether or not that's illegal?

MARLES: Well, ultimately it is a matter for America and Israel to go through the legality of this. But we are making clear that we support actions which prevent Iran from acquiring a nuclear capability.

EPSTEIN: Do we not believe Donald Trump when he said it was obliterated? Did he get that wrong?

MARLES: Well, it is absolutely clear that for Iran to acquire the capability would be a very bad moment for the world. Now, obviously when the actions of the United States occurred last year, that did have some impact in terms of degrading the nuclear capability but it's very important that Iran not be able to acquire it. And that's the basis on which we are supporting these actions now.

EPSTEIN: Richard Marles is the Defence Minister, the Deputy Prime Minister. The phone number's 1300 222 774. Minister, I do want to come to Aussies stuck in the region in a moment. But just on the legality, you haven't mentioned anything about the rules‑based order. Whenever the Australian government talks about the South China Sea, Ukraine, Russia, you say the rules‑based international order a lot. Why does the rules‑based order only apply to our enemies and our rivals, and not our friends?

MARLES: No, the rules‑based order applies across the board and there's one set of rules. And we very much support the rules‑based order. But let me also make clear that Iran acquiring a nuclear weapon is completely against the rules‑based order.

EPSTEIN: Sure, and you have said that a few times. Have America or Israel breached that rules‑based order?

MARLES: Well, it is ultimately a matter for the United States and for Israel to go through those explanations. But Iran acquiring a nuclear capability is utterly against the rules‑based order. I mean, the Non-Proliferation Treaty makes that really clear. And we support actions to prevent Iran from acquiring that capability. And it's important to understand this. Were Iran to acquire a nuclear weapon, that really risks a complete breakdown of the regimes that we have in place around the world – the rules‑based order – in respect of managing the most critical risk to humanity in terms of military capability in nuclear weapons. 

EPSTEIN: Agreed, it would be bad. I think a lot of people think that would be bad. But again, Donald Trump said that risk was obliterated. Is there any risk that you're going down the path of 2003 of weapons that might not really exist in any threatening form?

MARLES: Well firstly, I don’t think there is anyone making that assessment now. I mean, in the context of your own question, I don't think you're making that assessment now. There's no one who's suggesting that Iran is not moving down the path of acquiring a nuclear capability. And in fact, you know, your own question is saying whether or not the actions that occurred last year were successful enough. The bottom–

EPSTEIN: Yeah.

MARLES: Well, if that's your position, Raf, well then–

EPSTEIN: I don't have a position, I'm just trying to work out what the government's position is. Look, maybe it's easier if I ask this question, is there a legal opinion in government? Like does someone at the Department of Foreign Affairs and Trade let you know if they think what America and Israel has done is legal or not? I'm sure they've got a document on whether or not it's justified or not. Are they examining the legality question?

MARLES: Well ultimately we are– this is not an action which is being taken by Australia so it's not for us to have that advice. What is absolutely clear is that a breakdown in the nuclear regime that we have around the world, or the regime to contain nuclear proliferation, is profoundly important for the security of the whole planet. I mean, that is really clear. And Iran's nuclear program threatens to unravel that. And it's a really serious threat. And that's why we supported the actions which occurred last year. It's why we support the actions now. I mean, President Macron at the Shangri‑La Dialogue last year made it absolutely clear, and this is before any inactions had taken place, about the threat that Iran acquiring a nuclear weapon would represent for the security of the world. And so that is the issue here and it is really important that that be contained. And these actions are clearly about that.

EPSTEIN: I appreciate that. And I think practically everyone listening doesn't want Iran to have a nuclear weapon. However, if we want to make strong arguments against Russia, and if we want to make strong arguments about China – whether or not they're circumnavigating Australia, you know, in international waters, or doing something worse than that – don't we need to have an opinion on what our friends are doing? Don't we need to have strong public views about whether or not what our friends are doing is legal?

MARLES: Well firstly, we are making really clear we support these actions. I've made that clear a number of times in this interview. 

EPSTEIN: Yeah, no, no. We hear that, we hear that.

MARLES: And the reason is because of the threat to the rules‑based order that Iran acquiring a nuclear weapon would represent.

EPSTEIN: Richard Marles is the Defence Minister. You mentioned, just your all of government hat on, how many Australians are in the region. I think it's about 100,000 live there and tens of thousands fly here regularly. Is there much you can do if people are stuck there right now?

MARLES: Well look, the answer to that is it varies from country to country, but this is very much the focus of our diplomatic effort right now. There is a significant consular challenge. There's about 115,000 Australians who live across the region. I mean, in respect of Iran itself, there are Australians who are living in Iran. Our capacities there are limited since our embassy ceased its functions. It's why we've had in place for some time now a travel advisory to not travel to Iran and to leave if it is safe for people to do so. That said, we have the crisis portal open for Australians who are in Iran and Israel and this morning we've extended that to Australians who are in the UAE and in Qatar. And we will be providing the most up to date information through that portal as possible in terms– and including what actions we might be able to take.

EPSTEIN: You're not at charter flight point yet, I assume?

MARLES: Yeah, I mean, people are asking that question, which we understand. I mean, the fundamental issue right now in respect of that is that airspace is closed across the region and so we're obviously engaging in contingency planning, I won't speculate on that, but other than to say that once airspace opens up I actually expect that commercial flights will be the most expeditious way for people to fly from the region. But look, you know, we need to see what is happening with the airspace and that's clearly a function of what's playing out and so we watch that very carefully. But we would encourage Australians in the region, in those four countries to register with the crisis portal that gives you the most up to date information about what's happening, but what steps the government's taking. More broadly, of course, across the region we're encouraging Australians to follow Smartraveller and we have advisories on that as well.

EPSTEIN: And just to end, and briefly, like, if people are worried about their relatives anywhere in that region, what would you say to them?

MARLES: Well, there is the DFAT consular hotline, which people can look up and make calls in respect of that. What's really important is we put a lot of attention into the advice that we provide through Smartraveller, the advice that is given to people when they ring those lines. Stay in contact with the services that the Australian government is putting in place. They will give you up to date information and they will also provide advice about what steps we're taking.

EPSTEIN: Richard Marles is the Deputy Prime Minister and the Defence Minister. Thanks so much for your time. 

MARLES: Pleasure, Raf. 

ENDS