Television Interview, ABC 7:30

SUBJECTS: AUKUS; Prime Minister’s visit to the United States; Unsafe and unprofessional interaction with PLA-AF; Taiwan; Defence spending; Critical minerals

MICHAEL ROWLAND, HOST: The Acting Prime Minister and Defence Minister, Richard Marles, joined me earlier. Richard Marles, welcome.

RICHARD MARLES, ACTING PRIME MINISTER: Good evening, Michael.

ROWLAND: So, Donald Trump says it’s full steam ahead for AUKUS. But sitting at the same table, his Navy Secretary, John Phelan, was mentioning the need to clean and clarify some of the ambiguity. What are the ambiguities?

MARLES: Well, firstly, I think President Trump answered that question emphatically. I mean, we are working very closely with the United States in respect of AUKUS. AUKUS is underpinned by a very clear trilateral treaty between Australia, the United States, and the United Kingdom. And so it’s very clear what we’re doing and the process. Having said that, this is a giant project. For a country to acquire nuclear-powered submarine capabilities is a massive endeavour, and it really does involve trilateral cooperation.

ROWLAND: But should there be ambiguity in such a big project?

MARLES: Well, there’s not –

ROWLAND: – But those Navy Secretaries said there are, which need to be clarified.

MARLES: And again, I think if you look at President Trump’s words here, he answered that question emphatically. I mean, it’s really clear what we’re doing with AUKUS, but we want to know how we can do it better. We’ve embraced the review that the United States have done and are doing, just as we did a review when we came to office and the Brits did a review when they came to office. And in anything of this scale, we do want to see how we can do it better and where there are more opportunities to progress. But the fundamentals of this have been full steam ahead, and that was affirmed by the President last night.

ROWLAND: And the President was very clear that, in his words, you will get the subs — Australia will get the subs. Do you share that confidence? Do you share the confidence that the timeline will be observed, given all the problems the U.S. shipyards have?

MARLES: Well, I absolutely share the confidence, and I absolutely appreciate the affirmation that was provided by President Trump in the meeting. But the confidence is also very much driven from the work that we’re doing together. I mean, I know and I can see at a day-to-day level what our partnership is doing to increase the production and sustainment rates of Virginia-class submarines for the United States Navy. Our engagement through AUKUS is actually seeing many more sea days going into the back end of this decade, and that’s what we need to do for the United States Navy to provide the space for the transfer of the Virginia-class submarines to Australia in the early 2030s. And I’m very confident that we will well exceed the benchmarks that we need to in order for that transfer to occur.

ROWLAND: Australia’s been under a lot of pressure from the Trump administration to boost its defence spending. Yet overnight, the President seemed pretty relaxed about Australia’s defence spending. Given all that pressure, did that come as a surprise to you?

MARLES: Well, no. And, I mean, there’s been a fair amount of kind of breathless commentary about this, but in all the conversations I’ve had with my counterparts in the U.S., they’ve appreciated the story that we’ve had to tell. I mean, we’re engaging in the biggest peacetime increase in defence spending in Australia’s history, and that is a story which is well understood by the United States. And they can see how we are lifting up what we are doing. And so, you know, it’s not a surprise to me that we had those comments from President Trump. And they very much align, I might say, with what the Prime Minister has been saying, which is that what we need to do is to assess our strategic needs, to understand the defence force we need to build to meet them, and then to resource that. And that’s what we’re doing. And in doing that, we are yielding a very significant increase in our defence spend.

ROWLAND: Donald Trump says China does not want to invade Taiwan. Do you share that assessment?

MARLES: Well, look, I think that’s right, but I think we live in a world where there are very significant strategic challenges.

ROWLAND: And so it’s possible, in your view?

MARLES: Well, I don’t want to speculate. What I think is that what we have with China is obviously the biggest conventional military build-up that we’ve seen since the end of the Second World War. We are seeing a country which is seeking to shape the world around it in a way that we weren’t seeing 15 or 20 years ago on the part of China, and that presents challenges for Australia.

ROWLAND: Now, one challenge, excuse the interruption, is in the South China Sea, in the skies above. The Chinese plane putting flares, as you say, in a very unsafe way towards an Australian Air Force jet. You’ve raised concerns with China over this, but this happens again and again and again. Surely this is something that can’t continue, because inevitably there could be an Australian service personnel who gets injured or worse.

MARLES: Well, I think a few things. One is we have a challenging strategic landscape. As I said, China is seeking to shape the world around it in a way that we weren’t seeing before. That is the way in which it’s asserting itself in places like the South China Sea. And that’s a body of water that matters to us, most of our trade goes through the South China Sea. So, what won’t change is Australia’s assertion of the rules-based order in that body of water. I mean, we will continue to operate in the way which asserts the rules-based order, which asserts the UN Convention on the Law of the Sea, because freedom of navigation in that part of the world is actually fundamental to Australia’s prosperity and to Australia’s national interest. Now, there are risks, and we see them. And it’s why it’s so important that, in moments such as this, we are very clearly communicating to China our position.

ROWLAND: Yet they still do it?

MARLES: Well, what matters is that we are very clear in our communication here. And what also matters is that we’re not going to be deterred from asserting the rules-based order in international waters, in international airspace, in a part of the world where our trade passes, and where the bulk of our trade passes. So, the one thing that’s not going to change here is Australia’s posture and Australia’s attitude. We will continue to do this work

ROWLAND: Is the critical minerals deal signed by the Prime Minister and the President, in part, all about stopping China’s manipulation of the critical minerals market in terms of export controls and price manipulation?

MARLES: Well, I think it’s about pursuing an opportunity, but I think it is about creating a diversity of supply chains – in other words, other choices in terms of the processing and refinement of critical minerals than China. I mean, right now, we do see that downstream processing is, in large measure, done in China of rare earths and critical minerals. We’re extracting them right now in Australia, but the place where almost all of the processing occurs is China. And this is an opportunity to diversify that, which actually, I think, is going to be really good for the global market. It’s clearly going to be good for Australian industry. It’s also very good for the national security of both Australia and the United States.

ROWLAND: We’ve all seen that awkward exchange involving the President and Australia’s Ambassador to the U.S., Kevin Rudd. Donald Trump said he didn’t know who Kevin Rudd was. That’s got to hurt?

MARLES: Well, look, we have just had a very successful meeting between our Prime Minister and the President of the United States. When you look at the relationship that we have with the U.S. right now, we have the lowest tariff rate, our economic relationship is as strong as ever, our security relationship, I would argue, is as strong as ever. AUKUS is proceeding at a pace. We are meeting all of our milestones. The relationship is in really good shape, and Kevin Rudd deserves his share of credit in respect of that. He’s our Ambassador to the United States. You know, I see firsthand the work that he does, and he is doing an excellent job representing Australia in Washington.

ROWLAND: After the meeting, did he apologise to Donald Trump?

MARLES: Look, I think —

ROWLAND: Surely, no? Given word back from your colleagues there?

MARLES: I think after the meeting they had a friendly interaction.

ROWLAND: But did that involve an apology from Kevin Rudd?

MARLES: They had a friendly interaction. I’m not sure what it was, but they had a friendly interaction. And what I would say is this – Kevin deserves a lot of credit for where the relationship is at. Kevin, you know, I saw firsthand, did an enormous amount of work in the lead-up to this meeting. He’s doing a great job as our Ambassador.

ROWLAND: Richard Marles, thanks for your time.

MARLES: Thanks, Mark.

ENDS