Television Interview, ABC Insiders

SUBJECTS: Henderson Defence Precinct; Australia-US Relationship; AUKUS; PNG-Australia Bilateral Defence Treaty; Report of the Special Envoy to Combat Islamophobia. 

DAVID SPEERS, HOST: Richard Marles, welcome to the program.

RICHARD MARLES, DEPUTY PRIME MINISTER: Good morning David, how are you?

SPEERS: Very well. So, what will this $12 billion for the Henderson Precinct buy for Australia and potentially for the United States?

MARLES: Well, this is the first but very significant initial piece of money for delivering the Henderson Precinct. It’s over a decade. I should say, you know, the early estimates of what Henderson will cost is in the order of $25 billion. So, this is not the whole whole amount, but you can see it's a very significant chunk. What this does is, is help build the security in terms of this facility. This is going to be a facility which does, as you say, sustain nuclear‑powered submarines so it to be very secure. It will have the lay down for surface fleets and you can imagine that that will need undercover areas such as sheds. It will provide for a contingency docking capability for our submarine sustainment and it will begin the process of building our dry docking capability for our submarines and that's going to be really important as we go into the 2030s. And all of this, as you said, underpins the building of Army’s Landing Crafts. That's going to happen from next year, which is actually why it's so important to make this announcement now to give momentum going into next year. But we are moving down the path soon of being able to do greater sustainment on nuclear‑powered submarines. And we're looking to seeing the Mogami class frigate come to Australia to be built here and that would happen at the Henderson Defence Precinct as well.

SPEERS: So Australia's current defence spending is just over 2 per cent of GDP and it's due to get to 2.3 per cent over the next eight years. What will this additional money take that defence spend to?

MARLES: Look, I mean, to be frank, the percentage of GDP number is not one that we focus on and partly that's because there’s–

SPEERS: But others do. Sorry to but in– 

MARLES: Sure.

SPEERS: But obviously the Americans do and these are your numbers about what's getting to 2.3 per cent. So, what will this mean?

MARLES: Yeah, but partly why we don't focus on it is because you can look at a range of different measures. I mean if you take the way NATO accounts for GDP spending, our spending right now is at 2.8 per cent of GDP if you lined it up with how NATO accounts for NATO countries’ defence spending. The important point is this: when you include what we are spending here, it is the better part, relative to what we inherited when we came to government back in ‘22, of an additional $70 billion of defence spending over the decade. And what that represents is the biggest peacetime increase in our defence spending in Australia's history. So, it is a hugely significant amount that we have been putting into defence since we've come to government. And this is all about focusing on the way we do things, which is to look at what our strategic challenge is, what sort of Defence Force we need to build in order to meet that and then resourcing it.

SPEERS: I understand that, but just back to the question on what percentage this takes us to, does this get us to two and a half percent of GDP?

MARLES: Well, again I mean you're talking about–

SPEERS: You must know. 

MARLES: You're talking about a particular measure, as I say, the NATO measure which everyone is focusing on in terms of the commitment that NATO made a couple of months ago – we're at 2.8 [per cent] right now. So it really depends on

SPEERS: So what will this take us to? 2.9 [per cent] or 3 [per cent]? 

MARLES: We are focused on the dollar amount. 

SPEERS: You must know the percentage though, with respect, Minister?

MARLES: Sure. 

SPEERS: What is it?

MARLES: But precisely because there are differing numbers out there, the way in which we are– 

SPEERS: Well just give us one of those numbers. What is it? 

MARLES: Well I've just said to you that the NAITO figure for what we are right now is 2.8 [per cent]. I mean people can go off and do their calculations. At the end of the day, what this is is an additional $12 billion over the decade and it takes our increased defence spending since we came to government to the better part of $70 billion over the decade. And that is a very– well, it is the biggest peacetime increase in our defence spending.

SPEERS: You mentioned the dry docks that this will build – and I appreciate that's going to take some time – under this investment. Will the US be able to use them for maintenance on their nuclear‑powered submarines?

MARLES: Look, so where the US sustains its submarines is ultimately a matter for them, of course. But this is an AUKUS facility and so I would expect so, is the answer to that question. I mean first and foremost this is a sovereign capability. This is about being able to sustain and maintain Australia's future submarines. But it is very much a facility which is being built in the context of AUKUS, in the context of the Optimal Pathway for us acquiring a nuclear‑powered submarine capability. And so in that context, I would expect that in the future this would be available to the US.

SPEERS: Because we know the US has an issue here, I think it's about a third of their submarine fleet at any given time is in maintenance and they want to get that number down so they can get more submarines in the water. It seems to me this is something you probably discussed a couple of weeks ago when you were there in the White House. Was it?

MARLES: Well, certainly the contribution that AUKUS plays, and by that I mean both HMAS Stirling and the Henderson Defence Precinct to the sustainment and maintenance of US submarines is a really important point to make and we–

SPEERS: So, you talked about this at the White House just over two weeks ago, about what you're announcing today.

MARLES: Not specifically what we announce today, but we obviously spoke about AUKUS–

SPEERS: And maintaining US submarines at Henderson? 

MARLES: Well, perhaps more broadly, to answer that question, the contribution that we can make in terms of the sustainment and maintenance of US submarines in Australia. Because there's lower level maintenance which would happen at HMAS Stirling, but there is the opportunity here, and this is really to the point of your question, of seeing much greater sea days for the American fleet occur by virtue of the use of Australia, by virtue of the cohort of people that we are building up right now to work on nuclear‑powered submarines. You know, today there's 150 Australian workers at Pearl Harbor working on US Virginia class submarines. By the end of this year that number will go to 200. That's a significant number in American terms. We are building a cohort here who will be able to work on nuclear‑powered submarines, including American nuclear‑powered submarines and that is of enormous advantage in terms of getting more US Virginia class submarines out to sea for the US Navy.

SPEERS: And makes it easier then for the US to transfer those Virginia class submarines to Australia?

MARLES: Well, indeed. And that's part of the plan here. I mean, we've been really clear from the moment that we announced the Optimal Pathway back at the beginning of 2023 that there is a challenge in terms of getting more sea days out of the US Virginia class fleet for the US Navy and indeed getting production rates for new Virginia class submarines up. We're confident we will meet those milestones and it is an important part of creating the space for the first of those Virginia class submarines to be transferred to Australia in the early 2030s. 

SPEERS: And that's what it certainly looks like. So, it's good to have that confirmed – this is part of the plan, you did discuss this at the White House. The Washington Post reports that Marco Rubio privately told you that everything's going to be fine with AUKUS, with that Pentagon review, is that right?

MARLES: Well, look, I'm not going to go into those meetings beyond what I've already said publicly. But perhaps what I would say is, I've been speaking with my American counterparts since the moment that Donald Trump was inaugurated. Literally, I was there just a few weeks after that meeting with my counterpart, Pete Hegseth. And in all the conversations that I've had, there has been an enormous sense of positivity about the role that AUKUS can play for the United States. I mean, it's clearly important for us, but for the United States. And yes, they are having a review into AUKUS, something that we welcome. It's an opportunity to work out how we can do AUKUS better. That's exactly what Britain did when they came to government– when this government came to government last year. What we did, in fact, when we came to government back in 2022. So, it's actually a really important review. But the foundation of why AUKUS is important for the United States is something that has been well understood in all the conversations I've had and it's not going to surprise you that as a Defence Minister, this is a topic I talk to my American counterparts out both in terms of what it can mean for us, but how we're going in making it happen and we are doing well.

SPEERS: You've said you know yourself when that Pentagon review will be released. Do you also know what it's going to say?

MARLES: They're going through their review process, so I don't know what it's going to say. I mean, and nor am I about to preempt that. But yes, I do have a sense of when it will be done. I mean, the Americans have actually been really good with us in terms of taking us through the process of how this review is going to be undertaken, and also how we can contribute and we will.

SPEERS: Look before we leave the US, since you were there a couple of weeks ago, Donald Trump has renamed the Defense Department the Department of War. Pete Hegseth is now the Secretary of War. Is that how the Australian government will now refer to the Department and to Pete Hegseth?

MARLES: Well, that's the title that he has. So, I mean, we're going to refer to them in terms of the titles that they have. I mean, there is no intention, obviously, for us to change our own nomenclature in terms of my role, I'll be the Minister for Defence and I'm very happy to be the Minister for Defence. But we respect the way in which other countries name the functions that they do.

SPEERS: Now, you're heading to Papua New Guinea tomorrow with the Prime Minister for the 50th anniversary of PNG's independence. And you're due to sign this defence treaty tomorrow as well while you're there. Why does Australia want this treaty?

MARLES: Well, we began a process earlier this year with my counterpart Billy Joseph, of seeking to really update our defence cooperation arrangements with Papua New Guinea, which actually date back to 1977. So they need a refresh because we're doing so much more with PNG now. I think it is fair to say that as we've walked down that path over the course of the last few months – and we've been doing it with a view to having, you know, signing this agreement in conjunction with the 50th anniversary of PNG's independence – it's fair to say that a lot more ambition has been brought to this agreement and we are really excited about the agreement that we will be signing in the next few days. It certainly will transform the defence relationship between Australia and PNG. But I think beyond that, if you look at the various defence agreements that we have with countries around the world, actually it is hugely significant in that context.

SPEERS: Will this treaty have a similar clause to NATO's Article 4, that there will be consultation if either of the parties comes under threat?

MARLES: Well, look, I'm not about to preempt what is going to be signed and– 

SPEERS: The thing is your counterpart Billy Joseph has, as you know, he's spoken to the ABC and said that there will be this sort of Article 4 clause.

MARLES: Well, again, the Prime Minister will be signing this in the next few days and so I'm going to let the Prime Minister make those announcements and you'll see them shortly enough– 

SPEERS: Fair enough. But is there some confusion about this or is your counterpart right?

MARLES: Look, I am very pleased to see the excitement that Billy is bringing to this and it does, to be honest, reflect the way in which we've been going about this agreement since the moment that he and I first met to do this refresh back in January of this year. And it's turned into something much more than a refresh, it is a really significant agreement that we will be signing. But it does reflect the fact, David, that, you know, we are doing so many more exercises together, so many more operations together. We are really working hand in glove as two defence forces. I think this is profoundly important. We've made no secret of the fact that we've got an eye to recruiting out of PNG into the Defence Force.

SPEERS: I was going to ask you about that. So, Papua New Guineans will be able to join the Australian Defence Force and that will give them a pathway to Australian citizenship. I just had a question around this. Will they get paid the same as Australians who join the Defence Force? And could that lead to, I guess, a brain drain, an exodus from PNG's Defence Force to Australia?

MARLES: So, I don't want to get ahead of it in the sense that we've got an eye to it, we're certainly looking at walking down this path, but to be fair, there would be a series of announcements that we would need to make in the future to kind of express what you've just said there. But let me– but I do want to make one point in terms of the question that you've asked. People who work in the Defence Force are going to be paid the same amount. I mean, there's no ifs and buts about that. And you know, we've said as we have opened the Defence Force up to non-Australian citizens, so we did that first with New Zealand and then with Five Eyes countries, that it would be a pathway to citizenship. That's because we ultimately want citizens in the Defence Force and that's exactly how it operates right now when we do lateral transfers from countries like the UK. 

SPEERS: But do you limit it to certain numbers so that you don't get an exodus from Papua New Guinea's Defence Force?

MARLES: Well, numbers will clearly be managed and we need to be careful about how we do that if we're walking down this path with any of the countries in the Pacific, for sure. And you know, this is something we would be doing hand in glove with PNG as we walk down this path. I mean, this is something that PNG has spoken to us about. So, you know, they are excited about this. Again, I don't want to get too far ahead of it. We have an eye to it. The agreement contemplates it, but there is work to go here. But this is an important path, we think, in terms of the relationship between our two countries and also growing numbers within the ADF.

SPEERS: Just one more question on that PNG treaty. Will there be any restriction on what PNG can do with China under this deal?

MARLES: Well, again, I'm not about– let us announce the agreement when we do so in the next few days. I think what you can take though is that this is a really important statement from Papua New Guinea and indeed from Australia to each other. And I think this is Papua New Guinea making it really clear that traditional partners, and they've talked about this a lot, that traditional partners is where they look to in terms of their security. And from an Australian point of view, PNG is obviously on our northern flank. It really matters that we have the very best relationship that we can have with PNG in a security sense. And I'm really excited about the fact that this agreement is going to give expression to that.

SPEERS: And look, just one final matter away from defence. The government's Special Envoy for tackling Islamophobia handed his recommendations to the government and they were released on Friday. The report calls for a zero tolerance approach to racism amongst members of Parliament, as well as religious discrimination law more generally. But as far as MPs are concerned, what the Envoy seems to be saying is that there should be some sanctions on politicians who say things that are racist. Would you support that?

MARLES: Well, look, we are going to go through the process of responding to this report. You know, it's a very significant report with 54 recommendations, so we're going to give it the respect that it deserves and take the time to go through it. But let me be clear, the Parliament should not be a place for people to be making racist statements. As a party– 

SPEERS: But should there be a penalty or a sanction if a politician says something racist?

MARLES: Well the way in which this is described is in terms of how parties govern themselves, and from the Labor Party's point of view, we have a zero tolerance approach to racism being spoken about from any of our members. I mean, it is utterly unacceptable and no one speaks in those terms. We welcome the report that has been done by Mr Malik. It is a really important body of work. We are going to review it and give it the attention that it deserves. But dealing with Islamophobia in this country is something which, as Mr Malik has said, is become intensified, particularly over the last couple of decades after September 11. It is something that we need to deal with and it's part of the ongoing work of our nation.

SPEERS: Defence Minister Richard Marles, thanks for joining us this morning.

MARLES: Thanks, David.

ENDS