Television Interview, ABC 730

SUBJECTS: AUKUS

SARAH FERGUSON, HOST: Next year an American nuclear-powered submarine, US crew, support staff, families and pets will be stationed at the Stirling Naval Base in Western Australia. Just don't call it an American base. The official name is Submarine Rotational Force West. As the date gets closer, questions are intensifying about what this means for Australia and Australian sovereignty, and what the American military thinks it will be entitled to at the West Australian base long term. Defence Industry Minister Pat Conroy is in Washington D.C. for meetings with Pentagon officials about AUKUS. When we spoke to him this morning, he said for the first time that the American Navy submarine rotation would end in 2032. Analysts say that will come as a surprise to the US military. Pat Conroy, welcome to 730.

MINISTER FOR DEFENCE INDUSTRY, PAT CONROY: Thanks for having me Sarah.

FERGUSON: You've been meeting with senior Pentagon officials. Is the Australian Government under pressure to speed up construction of submarine facilities in Western Australia?

MINISTER CONROY: Not at all. And in fact senior US officials said that they were very happy with progress and they were looking forward to Submarine Rotation Force West beginning next year with the first US submarine rotating through as a way of us developing our capability to receive our own nuclear-powered but conventionally armed submarines as part of AUKUS. So, people were happy with the progress that was being made and people were energised by the potential that AUKUS offers.

FERGUSON: Is it time to be more explicit with the Australian public about how the US military would use those facilities in Western Australia in the event of conflict?

MINISTER CONROY: Well, ultimately that's a question for the governments of the day, both the US and Australia. And it's always dangerous for politicians to get engaged in hypotheticals. But they will have a rotational presence from 2027 for five years. That's obviously part of us getting sovereign ready so that we can run our own nuclear-powered but conventionally armed submarines as part of us equipping the Navy with the most advanced capability in the world and creating 20,000 high skill, high tech jobs. But hypothetical future conflicts is exactly that, hypothetical.

FERGUSON: But you agree that Stirling will offer a crucial advantage to the US military in a potential conflict with China?

MINISTER CONROY: Well again, you're layering one hypothetical on top of another one there, Sarah. This is obviously about getting us sovereign ready, developing the industrial base for Australia to receive our own submarines. But it obviously performs a strategic benefit as well as that.

FERGUSON: You say hypothetical. It's not quite hypothetical, is it? Because it's already part of US war planning. Do you accept that the facilities at Stirling would enable the US Navy to get its vessels back into combat more quickly?

MINISTER CONROY: Well, one of the advantages of HMAS Sterling is that we will be doing maintenance for US submarines as a way of developing our industrial capability and growing jobs. And it's the equivalent of 1,800 maintenance days. That obviously helps relieve pressure on the US industrial base. It also is obviously an entry point into the Indian Ocean. They are statements of the bleedingly obvious. So, it has a strategic utility, but that's an important factor for Australia as well as the United States. That's why we have a Fleet Base West there. That's a decision that Kim Beazley made when he was defence minister that we continue to build upon.

FERGUSON: You say statements of the bleeding obvious, which is a nice frank way of putting it, but do you think the Australian public is fully aware of that bleeding obvious about how those bases will be used by the US military?

MINISTER CONROY: Well, ultimately how they're used in a hypothetical future conflict is exactly that, hypothetical. And in the end it's a question for sovereign elected governments of the day. Nothing we're doing pre-commits Australia to any future conflict. It'll be up to the government of the day to decide what we do with our military and secondly what we allow other militaries to do on our sovereign territories.

FERGUSON: Isn't it also important to talk to people about the potential for Stirling and Henderson, for those facilities to become targets in the event of such a conflict?

MINISTER CONROY: Well, we've been upfront about the deteriorating strategic circumstances we face. We face the biggest arms race in our region since 1945. We see the rise of a global superpower in China that's undertaking a significant military build up in both conventional and nuclear weapons without the strategic trust or transparency that we think is justified. We're being very honest with the Australian public about what we face and confront, and we're tackling that with both investment in deterrence but investment in diplomacy. And that's what we're really focused on.

FERGUSON: US announced recently it was reactivating its submarine squadron number three, which will operate effectively from Stirling. Doesn't that support the idea that the US does indeed see Stirling effectively as a base for its submarines?

MINISTER CONROY: Well, it's a rotation. It's very important. We don't have foreign bases in Australia. We have a rotation of US submarines coming through just as we have a rotation of US marines. That is part of the optimal pathway for us getting ready for our own nuclear-powered submarines. We need to develop the basing capability for our submarines and industrial capacity to maintain those submarines. Obviously there's a strategic benefit for the United States to have rotations through Western Australia. That again is a very obvious and logical point, but it's in our interest as well and that's really important. The best way of us achieving our industrial and military capability to run our own nuclear-powered submarines is through this arrangement. We're doing this to get the most advanced submarines in the world for us to run by our own navy, to deter conflict in our region as well as growing our industrial base and creating 20,000 high skilled jobs. But obviously that's in partnership with the United States and the United Kingdom and all three countries benefit from that arrangement.

FERGUSON: Let me just quote the Wall Street Journal to you during a visit of recent US navy officials. “Because Australia doesn't allow foreign bases on its soil, officials characterise it as a rotational,” as you just did. “But the coming deployments could be at Stirling for a while.” How long is a while?

MINISTER CONROY: Well, our commitment is five years. That's the arrangement that we've put in place, with the plan being that as we acquire our nuclear powered submarines that they would move into HMAS Stirling and the rotational presence would come to an end. That's our plan, that's what we're committed to implementing.

FERGUSON: Former Defence Secretary Michael Pezzullo noted at the weekend that the US military will be placing smaller tactical nuclear missiles into its fleet from 2032, including on Virginia-class submarines. You must be aware of that.

MINISTER CONROY: Yes, I'm aware of that Sarah.

FERGUSON. So, in that event, will Australia always know when a US submarine coming into an Australian base is carrying nuclear weapons?

MINISTER CONROY: Well, I'd make a couple of points in response to that. Firstly, Submarine Rotation Force West is due to come to an end in the early 2030s, so the time frames don't exactly overlap. Secondly, a point I've made repeatedly is that the United States understands our obligations under the Treaty of Rarotonga around nuclear weapons and it respects that. So, that is our position and the United States respects that when it comes to their military capabilities.

FERGUSON: I just want to understand that. Are you saying that US submarines will not be passing through Stirling after 2032?

MINISTER CONROY: The current plan for Submarine Rotation Force West is that it's a five year commitment beginning in 2027 and that when we're sovereign ready and receive our own Virginias, Submarine Rotation Force West is due to end. So, this is a five year commitment and that's what it's been since we announced it in early 2023.

FERGUSON: But you're saying…

MINISTER CONROY: And it's also a rotation. So, I'm saying that this is a time limited rotation. Both the rotation each year is time limited. That's why they're not based there. They're only in HMAS Stirling for a limited amount of time each year. And the actual period that Submarine Rotation Force West will exist is time limited as well to the early 2030s. That was the commitment. This is all about getting sovereign ready for our own Virginia-class submarines. And that's what people should remember in this debate.

FERGUSON: How much time will those submarines, American submarines, be spending at Stirling in the course of a single year?

MINISTER CONROY: Well, I'm not in a position to disclose that to you tonight. That goes to the operational employment that the United States uses for those submarines. But they won't be there all year long. They will be rotated through. Just as the US Marines are rotated through Darwin. The marine rotation force in Darwin is not there all year long. It's rotated through. So, that's why these aren't bases. And anyone who claims that they are bases is incorrect.

FERGUSON: Will the Australian government always be informed if US submarines docking at Australian ports are carrying nuclear weapons?

MINISTER CONROY: What I can say to you is that we respect the US position that they will neither confirm nor deny that individual platforms are carrying nuclear weapons. But equally the US respects our position around the Treaty of Rarotonga, which bans nuclear weapons from being based in countries and being present in countries that are signatories to the Treaty of Rarotonga, including Australia. So, we respect their stated policy position, they respect ours and both can coexist.

FERGUSON: It's not true to say that they neither confirm nor deny because when the US military is operating with nuclear weapons in NATO countries, they tell them so. Why is it different for Australia?

MINISTER CONROY: Well, I was referring to their public statements there, Sarah, but what I can say to you is that the United States operates in Australia with our full knowledge and concurrence and they respect our position on the Treaty of Rarotonga around nuclear weapons.

FERGUSON: Does that mean that they will or will not always confirm the presence of nuclear weapons on their vessels?

MINISTER CONROY: What it means is they respect our position which is that nuclear weapons will not be based in Australia. And that's our position and they understand that and they respect that.

FERGUSON: You say based. What about in rotation passing through Australia?

MINISTER CONROY: It's both in based and carried through. So, that's my understanding of the Treaty of Rarotonga and the United States respects that.

FERGUSON: On that note, thank you very much indeed for joining us.

MINISTER CONROY: Thanks Sarah.

ENDS