Television Interview, ABC

SUBJECTS: Vice Admiral Jonathan Mead; AUKUS. 

JANE NORMAN, ABC: Defence Minister Richard Marles, Vice Admiral Mead, welcome. Thanks for your time. You've been in the service for more than 40 years now. Did you ever imagine that at the end of it, Australia would be on the cusp of acquiring a fleet of nuclear‑powered submarines?

VICE ADMIRAL JONATHAN MEAD, AUSTRALIAN SUBMARINE AGENCY: Absolutely not. And I've had a very varied career. I’ve commanded ships, started as a clearance diver, served in the Middle East, commanded ships in the North Arabian Gulf, Commander Maritime Task Force in the Middle East, came to Canberra, like a lot of senior officers, came in as a Vice Admiral. In the beginning of February 2021 I get called to the Secretary and the Chief of Defence Force office who advised me, or directed me to provide options to government on the acquisition of a nuclear-powered submarine. And I thought I'd seen a lot in 37 years, but the enormity of that task was breathtaking. It was- I knew how monumental this step would be for Australia, a generational leap in capability and unprecedented. And so from that point, I had to develop a small team. We worked together. We brought experts in, it was intelligence based. We continued to provide advice to government, and then we did a lot of work with our US and UK partners on this. I remember sitting in the White House and the Eisenhower Room and The Pentagon, thinking, how did I get here? And then came the announcement in September 2021, when the three leaders stood shoulder-to-shoulder virtually, and made the announcement Australia was going to progress down the nuclear path; that we were going to spend 18 months identifying the optimal pathway. And identify we did, but that was hard work, because none of this had been done before. Those crown jewels had not been shared before by the US- since 1958 the UK had never shared them before. We were entering a very, very special club. They wanted two things from us: they wanted to know that we were absolutely committed, and they wanted to know that we could safely and securely steward nuclear technology. And we had a change of government, and I got very clear directions from the Deputy Prime Minister on what he expected, and he was looking for an interim, immediate capability that could defend Australia. He was also looking for an enduring capability when it came to nuclear-powered submarines. And so we worked with the US and the UK essentially on two parallel pathways, one to get us that immediate capability, and one the long term. And we saw the announcement in March ‘23 where the three leaders this time did stand shoulder-to-shoulder in San Diego, and that's the optimal pathway. And I think that was a real achievement, to be able to convince the US and the UK that Australia was committed and that we were going to be safe and secure stewards of nuclear technology and material. I know all those people that that worked with me and around me from February ‘21 through to the announcement in ‘23 I think dearly, it just goes to the testament of that Australian doggedness. I remember a US Admiral, told me we needed to be- Australia- a demanding customer and demanding we were, and demanding we will continue to be, to make sure that we represent Australia's national interests.

NORMAN: So you've been part of AUKUS from the start. You were part of the Nuclear Powered Submarine Task Force that you led, which is now the Australian Submarine Agency, an agency of 900 or so workers. You're leaving in a pretty pivotal time. There are still a lot of balls in the air. We still have a Pentagon review that's outstanding. What gives you the confidence that you can leave now and what kind of shape is the agency in? It's obviously expanding very quickly.

MEAD: Yeah, it has rapidly expanded. I leave with a sense of confidence, because last week I was at HMAS Stirling, and I was there for the visit of USS Vermont. I did an inspection, an end-to-end inspection of the base to make sure that the base was ready in all respects, safety, security, maintenance. And USS Vermont is a Virginia class submarine, a Block IV, probably the block that will be coming to Australia in ‘27. And it will be undertaking the most complex maintenance by any US submarine outside American soil. And this is being done by Australian workers, Australian industry, Australian supply chain, with the assistance of the US. That gives me confidence that the US has total support and believes that Australia is on the right pathway, we have met all the milestones for the optimal pathway, is ready for ’27. I think leaving middle of next year gives government time to find that right person. It also gives time for my successor to be in the job for about 12 months before those submarines arrive. And so, she or he is fully across their brief and I leave with intense satisfaction of what many people thought could ever be done, and that we remain on track to deliver this capability, which is really designed to defend Australia, protect their people and safeguard our future prosperity.

NORMAN: Minister Marles, you’re sitting side-by-side with the Vice Admiral here. Can you assure us that this departure is as amicable as it appears to be?

DEPUTY PRIME MINISTER, RICHARD MARLES: Well, firstly, I think it is hard to think of anyone who has made a contribution to our nation of the scale as Admiral Mead. You know, a country really is defined- the character of a country is defined by what it can do. And in large measure, that is about military capability. With having a nuclear-powered submarine capability, we will be in a group of seven countries which operate that. And from the work that Jonathan did in 2021 to present to America and the United Kingdom the proposition of us acquiring that capability and that we would be a safe recipient of it, to the point of the AUKUS announcement in September 2021, through to developing the optimal pathway, Jonathan was at the heart of the decision of the US government to provide Virginia class submarines to Australia in the early 2030s – a decade ahead of where we would be getting the Australian made submarines. But then also to work with the United Kingdom government so that they make a decision that their successor class of submarine to the Astute class will be a common class operated with Australia. I mean, they are gigantic decisions of both of those governments, and yet are absolutely key to Australia being able to acquire this capability. And then to, of course, stand up the Australian Submarine Agency itself. Jonathan was the first employee, today there are 900. You take that across the board, over what will be five and a half years. I mean, this is a huge contribution to Australia. And the truth of the matter is that we owe Jonathan a debt of gratitude.

NORMAN: Alright, so let's talk about the submarine program. As I mentioned, there are lots of moving parts, daily developments. It's probably one for you, Minister, but we're learning the United States, for example, has given South Korea the green light to build nuclear submarines on US soil. You talk to your counterparts regularly. When did you first learn of the emergence of this apparent arrangement?

MARLES: Oh, well, I learnt when it was announced publicly. But I mean, we are supportive of America building capability with its allies, and that very much includes South Korea. And you know, we have a very close relationship with the Korean government, as we do with the US government. I think what's really key, and we spoke about this with my American counterpart, Secretary Hegseth, all that the milestones that we are seeking to meet in terms of increasing American rates of production and sustain, in other words, more sea days for the US Virginia class fleet, all of that will continue, all of that will be met. You know, I have absolute confidence that in terms of the arrangements that we have with the United States and, for that matter, with the United Kingdom, they will all go unchanged by the announcement that's been made between the US and Korea. 

NORMAN: There was some speculation, or there has been some speculation, that South Korea might seek to use our HMAS Stirling- Henderson West Coast sub base for maintaining these future fleet submarines. Have there been discussions with the South Koreans about that?

MARLES: Oh it’s at a very early stage in terms of the relationship between the US and Korea and so, there's not been any conversations about that. We're very focused on delivering AUKUS. We're very focused, as you've heard Jonathan say, on meeting that deadline for having the Submarine Rotation Force-West ready to receive American nuclear-powered submarines, Virginia class submarines at the end of 2027 and we're very much on track for that. You know, we are- we're focused on the task ahead. It is a massive task for our nation, and we are meeting all of those milestones, and we're very confident about being able to achieve this great national endeavour.

NORMAN: US President Donald Trump has very publicly endorsed the AUKUS arrangement, which I'm sure was a relief for everybody on the Australian side to hear him saying that publicly, but his Navy Secretary, John Phelan, around the Cabinet table in the White House spoke of some ambiguities in the AUKUS arrangement that need to be addressed. Vice Admiral, you obviously talk to your counterparts very often. What did you take that to mean? What are these ambiguities and how do we eliminate them?

MEAD: So I think we just need to see the end of the AUKUS review that the US are going to do, analyse it. We will then work with our partners, and then we will provide advice to Government on what that review is. 

NORMAN: Any idea of the timing of that now? You've been in contact with your counterpart. 

MARLES: I mean, I do, but I feel like it's for America to announce that, so I won't step onto that territory, other than to say that they've been very clear with us about the progress of the review, and we are aware of the expected timing of when the review will be announced. 

NORMAN: Would you say that might be imminently? Would it be before Christmas?

MARLES: I feel like I will let America make its own announcements but they have been very good in keeping us informed and giving us visibility of how the review is progressing.

NORMAN: So Roger Wicker, he's one of the most powerful Republicans in DC, the close ally of Trump, was at a hearing in Washington yesterday, and he said the AUKUS deal was cast into doubt despite the President's strong support, much to the surprise and dismay of Australia, one of our most steadfast allies. Is Roger Wicker correct– he’s referring to the Pentagon report, did this cause surprise and dismay in Australia the way it was announced?

MARLES: No, we've been really clear with our American counterparts that we not only respect but welcome the opportunity to do a review of AUKUS. I've said this on many occasions. It's a pretty natural step for an incoming government to take. It's one that we took when we came to Government, and the current British government took a similar step. And actually, I think what this review will do, as both the Lovegrove report did in the UK and the Defence Strategic Review did here, is provide an opportunity for all three countries to look at how AUKUS is progressing, how we can do it better. And that's something that we embrace, and the US government were clear with us about their intent to do a review. It made sense to us that they would do that. So we've never had any issues about the review, and we've always seen it as one which has been undertaken with an intent to see how we can do AUKUS better.

NORMAN: So while this review is underway, over in Western Australia there's a multibillion dollar upgrade that's underway of the HMAS Stirling naval base and the Henderson precinct. Vice Admiral, you've said on the record that we're on track to receive the first US Virginia in the final quarter of 2027. In terms of the work that's going on at the moment, you've also spoken of some interim buildings that are sort of underway. So what work is underway at the moment that needs to be finalised?

MEAD: So there is a broad spectrum that we needed to do for HMAS Stirling, and the Government has committed $8 billion to invest in that base. We're looking at security, certainly ramping that up, we're looking at emergency response procedures when the submarine is there, extension of the piers, upgrading of the maintenance sheds, building training centres that will have simulators – the same type of equipment that we will use when Virginias are transferred to Australia – we're looking at accommodation upgrades as well, and we're looking at interim radiological facilities to manage low level waste from the submarines, and we will store that in a safe, secure manner. That is happening at great pace. We are really transforming HMAS Stirling from a base that was home to submarines, Australian conventional submarines, which have done a terrific job throughout many decades, and turning that into a really world class base that will be able to host rotating US and UK nuclear‑powered submarines. And with that comes impeccable safety and security requirements and those issues I spoke about just before, they are what we're investing in. We are on track to deliver those capabilities by the middle of ‘27 in order to receive our first submarine shortly after that. 

NORMAN: So that's obviously going to be the main base for the Virginia class subs and the future SSN‑AUKUS fleet. There hasn't been much public discussion about the prospect of an east coast base. Minister, is the Government still committed to setting up an east coast base for Australia's future nuclear‑powered subs? 

MARLES: We are and that formed part of the Defence Strategic Review. But the decision around that is one which is a fair way into the future. It's not in the 2020s and I think in that sense, we are focused on meeting every step as it comes, and that's one which is a fair way down the track. But the Defence Strategic Review spoke about the importance in the medium to long term of having an east coast base. We very much accept that idea. But it's a decision that we will make in due course when it's time to make it, and that's a fair way to the future. 

NORMAN: So when it is time to make that, assuming that we do receive our first Virginia class sub in about 2032, how much earlier do you need to be making these decisions?

MARLES: Well, we said previously that the making of that decision is around 2030 and beyond, and it is really when you've got a fleet of nuclear‑powered submarines operating such that it would make sense to be able to have an east coast base from which they would operate. Now, we don't get our first submarine until 2032, in terms of our first nuclear‑powered submarine, and it will be a few years after that before we have a number of those submarines. So that's the kind of timing that we're talking about. 

NORMAN: And what kind of shape would that base take? Would it be a full maintenance dry‑docking facility, or more of a resupply base for, you know, personnel and supplies to be brought on and off? 

MARLES: Well, I think that's all to be worked through, but I think it's important that our submarines, in the fullness of time, are able to operate from both sides of our continent. But as you rightly say, Fleet Base West– HMAS Stirling is very much the home of our submarines, and I imagine that will continue to be so for the long term.

NORMAN: And there's been speculation that the east coast base could be anywhere from Brisbane right down to Eden. Have any ports been ruled in or out, or is everything on the table?

MARLES: Again, we will let that process be gone through. We're very open minded about it, but it's a decision for a long way down track, and we're not going to rush into decisions ahead of time. I mean, to get this thing done, we need to take every step as it comes and get that step right. And right now the focus is on getting the Submarine Rotational Force–West up and running, and that means getting HMAS Stirling ready to have American boats rotating through it, American submarines rotating through it from the end of 2027. We're obviously also very much focused on the Henderson Defence Precinct, which will be really important in terms of the future maintenance of our submarines, and of course, the building of submarines in Australia, and that's being developed in Adelaide, at Osborne. So our focus is very much on all of those projects, and all of them at Osborne, at Henderson, at Stirling, are all happening at a pace.

MEAD: I would just say, I was going to talk about what's happening in South Australia. We are developing the world's most advanced shipyard down there to build the most complex engineering project in the world: nuclear‑powered submarines. More complicated than a space shuttle. That is going to happen down in South Australia. That is going to be a revolutionary change down at Osborne, and that will see that state being one of very few places in the world, particularly with our allies, where that type of technology and advanced manufacturing occurs, and we're very much on track there. I regularly see the Premier, Premier Malinauskas about every fortnight, and we have discussions. I go down, I see the footprint. They're making really good progress down there on the design of the yard itself. I think that's going to be a very exciting prospect of building our own submarines. But we're certainly not shying away from how complicated that will be.

NORMAN: Just before we wrap up, there has been some sort of grumblings within the Defence Force about the AUKUS agreement, and the sort of investment and resources that it's hoovering up within Defence. I guess, as you prepare hand over to your successor and leave this project at this point in time, what do you kind of say to the critics who believe that too much focus is being placed, too many resources are being poured into this massive submarine program right now? 

MEAD: Well, it was very clear by the intelligence that we conducted in working with our allies, that nuclear submarines possess a capability like none other. And particularly the Government's adoption of a strategy of deterrence by denial, the best way to do that is through a nuclear‑powered submarine that can remain undetected for months on end and either remain close to the homeland or operate further afield to protect our trade routes, our sea lanes, noting 99% of goods that are imported are coming by the seas, and all of our exports leave Australia by the seas. Nuclear‑powered submarines are the primary capability to do that. And yes, they are expensive, but there is a significant return on that investment and we remain within our funding envelope of .15% of GDP. And we think that this is an absolute high priority. It's a no fail mission for us. Every day, everyone in the ASA understands their sense of purpose. The timelines have no flexibility in. We understand priority in getting this capability to Australia as soon as possible. The region around us is changing, and in order to meet that change we need to have a Defence Force that is capable to defend itself, and if need be, protect itself.

MARLES: Can I just say, Jane, I mean, I think you look at the map, you understand Australia as a trading economy, and it is hard to think of a country in the world which has a greater need for a highly capable, long‑range submarine than Australia. That's always been the case, and Collins has done an incredible job, but we will need to have this capability going forward. And so it is really important that we continue to have that, and the only way we will have it in a meaningful way is to have a nuclear‑powered submarine capability. But I would also say that we are building the rest of our Defence Force as well. When you look at what we're doing in terms of the Guided Weapons and Explosive Ordinance Enterprise– GWEO, and the creation of the building of missiles here in Australia. Look at what we're doing in terms of creating a more amphibious Army, what we're doing in terms of hardening and enhancing the capabilities of our northern bases for our Air Force. Right across the board, we are investing in our Defence Force in what is the biggest peacetime increase in Defence spending in our country's history. So all the services are being enhanced and improved. Having a long‑range submarine capability is fundamental to the Australian project.

NORMAN: And just finally, Vice Admiral, you've overseen this enormous project, it's been moving in kind of warp speed, it's a high pressure environment, high stress job. You try and instil a kind of a work‑life balance with your own employees, and how have you sought to do that yourself?

MEAD: So the first point, the work life balance for employees is fundamentally important. We talk about the optimal pathway – that involved thousands of hours of VTCs late at night because of the time zone differences to get to where we were. That takes its toll on people. And so we are absolutely dogged in making sure that people have their own work‑life balance. For me, paradoxically, I use marathon running as my work life balance, and I've completed five marathons in the past 12 months.

NORMAN: Maybe not what a few other people might think is relaxing. 

MEAD: And I'm very now proud to say that I've been accepted to do the Boston marathon next year, in fact on Patriots Day. So I use that as an outlet to be able to take time off, to mentally recharge, to physically recharge. I take great pride in doing that. Sometimes I wonder, is doing a marathon under arduous conditions harder than leading the nuclear‑powered submarine agency? You can toss a ball there. Both are very demanding, both take up my time, but after what will be 42 years in the Navy, five and a half years in this job, and at that list of achievements– well, not achievements, that list of postings that I've had this has been by far the most demanding, the most challenging, but the most satisfying posting I've ever had, and I'm deeply grateful for the political leadership of the Deputy Prime Minister who's kept me on a very steady path along the way, provided a very clear sort of direction on what he's looking for. And I'm enormously grateful for having the opportunity to serve Australia in this way.

NORMAN: Vice Admiral Mead, Minister Marles. Thanks for your time.

ENDS