Television Interview, Sky News

SUBJECTS: Unsafe and unprofessional interaction with People’s Liberation Army‑Air Force; 31st Australia-PNG Ministerial Forum; PNG-Australia Mutual Defence Treaty; Australia-Vanuatu relationship; Prime Minister’s visit to the US; AUKUS. 

TOM CONNELL, HOST: Some breaking news for you right now, the Australian Government is seeking some response from Beijing. This is over another allegation of a dangerous incident between the defence forces. Joining me live at the desk is Acting Prime Minister and Defence Minister, Richard Marles. Thanks for your time. So, just getting information of this. This has happened with a Poseidon maritime patrol aircraft. So, a big slow jet, in the parlance – in the South China Sea between that Australian larger aircraft and a fighter aircraft. Can you talk us through what's happened here?

RICHARD MARLES, DEPUTY PRIME MINISTER: Yeah, good afternoon, Tom. So, yesterday afternoon, as you say, above the South China Sea, in international airspace above international waters, an Australian P‑8 Royal Australian Air Force plane was doing a routine maritime surveillance patrol. As it was doing that, a PLA‑Air Force– a Chinese Air Force Su‑35, which is a fast jet fighter plane, came alongside. That of itself is pretty routine and there's nothing necessarily extraordinary in that. It released flares and again, that of itself can be a reasonably standard interaction between two military aircraft. But on two occasions it released flares very close to the P‑8 and it's really that; the proximity at which the flares were released, which has given us cause to deem this unsafe and unprofessional. Now, to be very clear, all our crew are safe and obviously the plane landed without incident. But we've got a very clear procedure in these events now, which is to firstly make it public and call it out. We have made representations to the Chinese embassy here in Canberra and indeed our embassy has also made representations in Beijing. Clearly the safety of our Defence Force personnel is paramount here, as of course is the work that they do which is really asserting the rules‑based order.

CONNELL: So, the flares, if they're at a distance, can be just a way of saying we see you? There's obviously constant competition in these areas.

MARLES: Correct.

CONNELL: Is the proximity around whether a flare gets into a jet engine or whatever it might be? How far away are we talking? 50 meters?

MARLES: Look, we haven't put the distance out there. It was very close. But it's exactly as you say–

CONNELL: Close enough so if the wrong draught or wind happens, it could have got into the plane's mechanisms? 

MARLES: That's right. So, at a distance it can be a means by which aircraft do communicate and I guess make a point. But if it is very close then it can be dangerous. And that's what we see is the case here in terms of the proximity with which this happened on two occasions where the flares were released and that's why we're calling it out.

CONNELL: And any incident of this type will be– there'll be information on it, you'll talk to the media as soon as you can and the point being, if China wants to try to put pressure on and say, don't mention that, you say, well, this is going to roll straight off my desk into a media release regardless? 

MARLES: Look, we've been making this– it is really important that there are consistent behaviours and consistent communications when it comes to issues of this kind and that's what we've sought to do since we came to office. And so we assess all the interactions. There are lots of interactions, which is fine and we get that there will be. What we've always said to China is that we want those interactions to be safe and professional. Where we deem them to be both unsafe and unprofessional, we make it public.

CONNELL: Is there a sense that when it's in the South China Sea this is almost an order– that do what you want? Because this keeps happening when it comes to the Chinese military and other nations.

MARLES: Well, again, I would say that we do a lot of activity to assert the rules‑based order in the South China Sea. And to be clear about it, it's not gratuitous. This is where our sea lanes are. Most of our trade, literally most of Australia's trade goes through the South China Sea. And the rules‑based order applying there is fundamental to our national interest. So that's why we are there. There are lots of interactions between our two defence forces and by and large those interactions happen in a manner which is safe and which is professional. But you know, there have been occasions where it's been unsafe and unprofessional. 

CONNELL: So, your point being, there's a lot of times they come close, whilst the incident is disappointing?

MARLES: There's a lot of times where it's both safe and professional, but where it is unsafe and where it is unprofessional, and we have seen those instances, we call it out and it's important that we do that.

CONNELL: The Pukpuk Treaty, is signed and official today with PNG. Interesting to note– so, up to 10,000 Papua New Guineans can join the ADF. At that stage, are they just fully fledged ADF members? Would they, if PNG needed them desperately, would they go back? How does that work for those personnel?

MARLES: Well, firstly, it'll take us time to get to that kind of number. We have that ambition, a shared ambition. 

CONNELL: That’s cap they’re allowing? 

MARLES: Well, we actually haven't put a cap on this. That's, if you like, an ambition that both of us are pursuing. But it's going to take a number of years before we get to that level. But what we are doing is looking at direct recruitment from Papua New Guinea into the Australian Defence Force. And in answer to your question, when those people are in the Australian Defence Force, they're fully fledged members of the ADF and that's where their call is. It's going to provide fantastic opportunities for those people. They will become Australian citizens, that's part of the process here and it's important that we have a defence force made up of Australian citizens. But it will be really important for us in terms of taking the Defence Force to the size that we want to take it to. But the process that we'll go through here, which is going to involve a lot of training of people before they enter to make them– if you like, to enable them to be ready to join the Defence Force, will also be really good in terms of building that cohort of people to enter the PNG Defence Force as well.

CONNELL: So, even if they don't join us, they're trained up well?

MARLES: Yeah, and I think there'll be a cohort that can then join the PNGDF.

CONNELL: Is there a sense now that in the contest in the Pacific, PNG has clearly picked a side?

MARLES: Well, Papua New Guinea is now an Australian ally and we are an ally of PNG–

CONNELL: You can't undo that, right?

MARLES: No. And this is the– what's really significant about this Ministerial Forum, it's the 31st Ministerial Forum, we do it every year, but this is the first time we're doing it as allies. Two weeks today is when we signed the Alliance agreement. And it is very clear that there is a choice being made here by Papua New Guinea in terms of where it sees its security lying and that’s with Australia.

CONNELL: What about Vanuatu? It hasn't made that choice. Are you looking to change the terms of that so it's more comfortable, or is it a take it or leave it deal?

MARLES: We work with countries across the Pacific. There is a bit of a difference in terms of Vanuatu. Vanuatu doesn't have a defence force, and so that's an important point to make here– 

CONNELL: Yeah, different deal, but my point around that is they were not comfortable with the nature of it, including whether or not they could accept infrastructure spending for other countries. So, is that a take it or leave it deal or are you still working on it?

MARLES: We're working on it. It is– 

CONNELL: You could change it?

MARLES: It is an agreement and by that I mean we are working together to reach an agreement. But I'm really confident that the agreement that we will reach and that we will sign with Vanuatu will be utterly transformational in terms of our two countries.

CONNELL: Did you give any last advice to Anthony Albanese?

MARLES: He doesn't need my advice. Look, he’s looking forward– 

CONNELL: Maybe some golf lingo?? 

MARLES: Well, even there he doesn't need my advice, but he is looking forward to this meeting. I mean, the point I'd make here, Tom, is of course, the Prime Minister has spoken with the President on a number of occasions by phone. They do have a rapport. They saw each other in New York just a few weeks ago. So it's obviously a very significant meeting, there's no doubt about that. But, you know, we come into it with a sense of optimism about this. I'm sure it'll be a really good meeting. You know, both sides are really looking forward to the opportunity of it. But it's a meeting happening between two people who already know each other pretty well.

CONNELL: So, AUKUS– we're hearing less about sort of issues with it. But I mean, even if this review ultimately ticks it off, an act of Congress is required. A sitting president in 2031 still has to sign off on sales of submarines to Australia. Does that mean the Sword of Damocles will hang over us until then?

MARLES: Look, it means that there's a shared challenge, which we've always understood to get the production rates up and the sustainment rates of US Virginia class submarines for the US Navy. We need to get more sea days for the US Navy in terms of their Virginia submarines. But the point to be made here is that AUKUS is going to do that in the near term. I mean, obviously we are making our contributions to– the financial contributions to our industrial base. But we've got something in the order of 150 odd, by the end of this year it’ll be 200 workers in Pearl Harbor who are training to be able to work on our cohort of submarines and maintain them in Australia. But right now they're working on US Virginia class submarines to get them out to sea for the US Navy.

CONNELL: But that matters for us because they've got an out clause. This has got all the eggs in this basket pretty much.

MARLES: Well, we are working together to achieve the space for America to provide us with a Virginia class submarine in the early 2030s. But I'm really confident that we're going to get there. When you look at what we are doing in terms of the opportunities to sustain their submarines and in terms of production, we're confident it will well exceed what is required in order to create the space for the sale to occur.

CONNELL: Richard Marles, appreciate your time. Thank you.

MARLES: Thanks, Tom.

ENDS