Television Interview, Sky News

SUBJECTS: Henderson Defence Precinct; Defence Spending; Australia-US relationship; Polls; Jacinta Allan.

PETER STEFANOVIC, HOST: Joining us live this morning is the Defence Minister, Richard Marles. Minister, it's good to have you with us as always, bright and early. So, what does this take our spending to now as a proportion of GDP?

RICHARD MARLES, DEPUTY PRIME MINISTER: Well, Pete, we're not focused on that number. Like we are focused on what money we are spending for the defence capabilities that we need. As you said, yesterday, we announced $12 billion, which in anyone's book is a significant contribution to the Henderson Defence Precinct which as you rightly described, is going to enable continuous naval shipbuilding here in Western Australia in time building the Mogami class general purpose frigates. When that build shifts to Australia, it will also be the place of the sustainment and maintenance of our future submarine fleet and enable the sustainment and maintenance of nuclear-powered submarines here in Western Australia. Again, that's a really important contribution to our country. It is a really important step forward in terms of the AUKUS arrangement and the ability for the United States to operate their nuclear powered submarines from HMAS Stirling as part of the Submarine Rotational Force- West, which in turn is really important for the US's strategic objectives. So, you know, that's what we're focused on. And we're focused on the dollars that we're contributing.

STEFANOVIC: Okay, you might not be focused on that number, but it seems to be important to the Americans, right? They're demanding we get up to three, three and a half percent.

MARLES: Well, I think people misread all of this. I mean there are international benchmarks out there, but ultimately any country, when it goes about thinking how it's going to resource its defence force, does so on the basis of what is the strategic need, what defence force do you need to meet that and how do you resource it? And that's the process that we're going through as well. And when we're having conversations with the US, or for that matter with anyone with our European colleagues, we go into the detail of describing what it is that we're trying to do here and what people are seeing. What America sees is that we have engaged in the biggest peacetime increase in Australia's defence spending in our history. It's a good story to tell. And they can see that we are building the capabilities that we need. I mean, a number doesn't give you the ability to contest in a conflict capabilities do.

STEFANOVIC: With this this extra $12 billion, what does it take the number to now, as a proportion of GDP?

MARLES: Well, again, it depends on how you calculate that, which is why we're not focused on the proportion of GDP. What it does is-

STEFANOVIC: Is that because it hasn't risen that much?

MARLES: The amount that we've spent on defence. No, you can do all the sums. $12 billion is a significant amount of money. I mean, if there's anybody out there trying to claim that $12 billion is not a significant amount of money that is obviously disingenuous. What this represents now, since we've come to government, is an additional $70 billion over the decade, which is the biggest peacetime increase in Australia's defence spending.

STEFANOVIC: When I said not that much, I mean, does the GDP figure not improve that much despite that huge $12 billion spend? Is that why you're resisting naming a percentage?

MARLES: No, no. The point of not going down the road of a percentage is it depends on obviously what is included, with how you calculate it- there are various different measures around the world. It obviously depends on the size of your own GDP. I mean, that can move, which has nothing to do with defence, and it suddenly changes the number. What we say is the relevant way to think about defence spending is the actual dollars that you spend on defence- there's not rocket science in that, which is why we're pretty resolute in describing this in terms of how much we're contributing. But I want to make this point: if you take that $70 billion that we have additional, that we have put in over the last few years, that undoubtedly shifts the needle in terms of how much we are spending on defence. It is the biggest peacetime increase in defence spending in Australia's history.

STEFANOVIC: Okay, but when you, when you mention that it's up to 2.8 per cent, including defence pensions, is that the argument that you're now taking to the Americans?

MARLES: The argument that we're making to the world is that we have assessed our strategic circumstances, we've worked out what our strategic need is, the kind of defence force we need to meet it, and we are resourcing it. We are resourcing it through successive defence announcements which have dollars attached, completely transparent. And what that means, in a historic sense is the biggest peacetime increase that our country's ever done. That is the story we're telling.

STEFANOVIC: All right, but I mean, but the figure that we're always going by is, is, I'm sorry, we're back at GDP, it's a fraction over 2 per cent, with a plan to get it to 2.3 per cent. I mean, is that, is that the baseline where we're staying at, despite this huge $12 billion uplift?

MARLES: Well, I mean, when you do those sums, obviously if you are increasing defence spending, it is going to increase that number-

STEFANOVIC: To what?

MARLES: But we're talking in terms of the dollars. Well, we're talking in terms of the dollars, because that is what makes sense, Pete. Look, we saw the Liberals walk down this path at the last election. They go out and they think that what you do in terms of fighting a conflict is to announce a number, and they did that in the election campaign and then they get the very first question, well, what would you actually spend that money on? And they did not have an answer. Like having a number and trying to backfill makes no sense. What we are doing is looking at our defence capabilities and we are resourcing them. And that is the story which is resonating well, firstly with the Australian public, because that's what matters, this is about keeping Australia safe. But when we talk with our international partners, they absolutely get that. So, this fixation on the GDP number is actually not what's out there in the conversations that we're having. We watched the Liberals walk down this path and it led them to the single silliest defence announcement that we've seen. What we are focused on is building Australia's defence capabilities and we are utterly transparent about that.

STEFANOVIC: At the very least, Minister, do you think this will be enough to get the Prime Minister a meeting with Donald Trump at the UN next week?

MARLES: Well, look, I'm not going to speculate about that. I am sure that there is going to be a meeting in the not too distant future between the Prime Minister and the President. And you know that they had a phone call in the last few days. It's not the first phone call that they've had. And so the relationship between ourselves and the United States is going well. The Prime Minister is building a relationship with the President. His Ministers, including myself, are building relationships with our counterparts. Our systems literally talk on a daily basis in the sense that we've got embedded Australians throughout the American system. The alliance is going well, our defence relationship is going well, AUKUS is going well. And I'm sure that in the not too distant future, we'll see a meeting between our leaders.

STEFANOVIC: Ok, just a couple of quick ones before we go. Newspoll out today. It's a free hit for you, dire for the Opposition. Do you get the feeling that you'll be in government for as long as you want on this trend?

MARLES: Well, we're not focused on what the polls say. And the answer to that question is that every three years there's an election and the Australian people can make their decision. And we don't take anything for granted. And yes, we were very gratified by the election result a few months ago, but that provides no guarantee about any future election result. And what we need to do is to be working for the Australian people and to continue to earn their confidence and trust. And that's our focus.

STEFANOVIC: And just another quick one here on a Victorian Labor colleague of yours, Jacinta Allan. The Victorian Premier, she's got a trip to China. Have you got any concerns about her trip as she's about to touch down there to talk about trade?

MARLES: Well, look, that's a matter for Jacinta Allan, obviously, but I mean, the China relationship is complex. That's I guess, to state the obvious. We do- this is from a Federal Government point of view. We want the most productive relationship that we can have with China and we will work with China where we can. They clearly are a source of security anxiety. But in all of that, you know, you need to actively manage the relationship. What we've sought to do at a federal level is to stabilise the relationship and that has seen, you know, Commonwealth Ministers, it's seen the Prime Minister visit China. So, we get there's a place for that. You need to engage with the complexity. It needs to be done with nuance. But at the end of the day, this visit is a matter for Jacinta Allan.

STEFANOVIC: Okay. Richard Marles, thank you so much for getting up early for us. You're working on First Edition hours by getting up so early in Perth for us, so go have a coffee. Thank you so much. We're all used to those hours.

MARLES: I'm running on caffeine.

STEFANOVIC: Yeah, okay. Richard Marles, thank you so much. 

ENDS