Radio Interview, ABC Perth Drive

SUBJECTS: Russia-Ukraine Conflict; Middle East Conflict; Ghost Shark; Defence Spending; Australia-United States Relationship. 

GARY ADSHEAD, HOST: This morning, the Defence Minister and of course Deputy Prime Minister Richard Marles announced that the Albanese Government was investing $1.7 billion to acquire a fleet of what are known as Ghost Shark drone submarines. And they will be designed and built here in Australia. So, I thought we'd speak to him to find out more about that. But also in the last 24 hours, if you haven't been able to keep up with what's going on around the world, Poland's military, it scrambled its own air defences to shoot down Russian drones over Poland. So, that is a concern where that might go to. And also, of course, we've seen that Israel had launched an attack on an apartment building in Qatar, claiming that is where the leaders of Hamas were holding out in terms of an up and coming roundtable discussion around a possible solution to the Gaza‑Israel conflict. And that's pretty dramatic as well. I started by asking the Defence Minister about both of those.

RICHARD MARLES, DEPUTY PRIME MINISTER: Well, I suppose in relation to Europe, you know, we are very mindful of what's playing out in Ukraine. Clearly Poland is very much adjacent to all of that. And you can see what has happened in terms of the transformation of Poland's own defence force over the last couple of years to understand how present all of that is for Poland, and the Polish people. But ultimately what we need to be seeing in relation to Eastern Europe is the rules­‑based order maintained. And so long as we see the conflict being pursued by Russia against Ukraine, which is in utter violation of that rules‑based order, that rules‑based order is on trial and Australia will stand with Ukraine to defend it. 

In respect to the Middle East, we are concerned about the strikes that we saw overnight. This is a violation of Qatar's sovereignty. It does nothing to bring to an end the hostilities in Gaza. It risks the return of hostages and it gives rise to the possibility of escalation – and all of that is concerning. And I'd add that Qatar has been very central to trying to promote discussions around peace and so, you know, we are very concerned about what we've seen overnight.

ADSHEAD: You know, it might be argued now that, as we understand it, Hamas have confirmed that five of its people were killed in this airstrike by Israel. And according to Benjamin Netanyahu, in retaliation to what happened at the bus stop in Jerusalem. Israel will feel ok with the fact that they have taken out five Hamas people, won't they?

MARLES: Well, look, we have been very clear in condemning Hamas from the outset, going right back to October 7, 2023. And we have been absolutely consistent and clear in our condemnation of Hamas for the terrorist attack on that day, for the loss of life of innocent people, for the taking of hostages. We've also made it clear that in any future Palestinian state, Hamas can have no role. And so, you know, we've been completely clear in condemning Hamas. But I reiterate what I said before, what we saw overnight was a violation of Qatar's sovereignty. Qatar has actually been a country which has been trying to use its offices to give rise to dialogue for peace. And we don't see that what has occurred takes us further down the path of seeing an end to– a ceasefire in respect of Gaza and a return of the hostages.

ADSHEAD: And has the Australian Government made that clear to Israel in any form in the last few hours?

MARLES: Oh, well, I mean, the Foreign Minister has made this position clear publicly, as have I.

ADSHEAD: I'm talking to the Defence Minister and Deputy Prime Minister Richard Marles. Can I ask you, you made an announcement today in relation to Ghost Shark drones. Can you please describe that to me? What is it?

MARLES: What is a ghost shark? 

ADSHEAD: Yeah.

MARLES: Yeah, well, people will see pictures on it on their TV screens tonight, but what it is is a large, autonomous uncrewed underwater platform which has a very long range. We're not describing what the ranges are, but a very long range. And in terms of what it can do; intelligence, surveillance, reconnaissance and strike. This is a lethal capability. This is the world's leading capability in terms of a long-range, uncrewed autonomous underwater system. And it's a really exciting development. It's been developed here in Australia by Anduril Australia. It's been done so over quite a number of years now. We've had three prototypes prior to the point that we're at today. And what today represents is a $1.7 billion contract over the next five years to acquire dozens of these platforms for the Royal Australian Navy, the first of which will come into service next January, so just months away. And this greatly enhances the capability of the Royal Australian Navy. 

ADSHEAD: I'm talking to the Defence Minister and Deputy Prime Minister Richard Marles. What is it designed to do, though, in terms of any enemy that we might have posing a threat to us. Where does it come into play?

MARLES: So it is a platform, obviously, that operates underwater and is uncrewed, it's autonomous, but it can have a number of payloads on it. So, you'll forgive me for being a little vague here, because the very nature of underwater activity is stealth. And so by its nature, we are pretty coy about describing with precision all that can be done. But the various payloads that can be put on this platform can engage in intelligence activities, it can engage in surveillance activities, so observing, looking at things and again, we're talking long range. But it can also engage in strike. I mean, this is a capability that can be lethal and it can have that kind of payload as part of it as well. And so it's very versatile in terms of what it can do. It operates with all the stealth of a submarine and so it's very hard to detect. And it greatly enhances the capability of the Royal Australian Navy. You know, we've often talked about what we are seeking to do with our Defence Force is build a Defence Force that can have impactful projection, that can, you know, go beyond our shores and be able to do so with impact. This is a perfect example of that.

ADSHEAD: Would it be, or would some of these Ghost Sharks be based in Western Australia or are they launched from a different platform or from a naval base, for example?

MARLES: Well, it can be launched from a range of– in a range of ways. So, it can be launched from shore. It can also be launched from other platforms that are at sea. And so in that sense it is quite versatile. I emphasise, it is very long range, and perhaps just to spend a moment on that, I mean, we are looking at developing a range of autonomous underwater capabilities which have a variety of ranges. Ghost Shark is the longest range version of those and therefore it's obviously the biggest version of what we are doing. And so then where you get to places that are geostrategically relevant, and there is no place in Australia that is more geostrategically relevant than Perth.

ADSHEAD: So, we expect to see them here. Well, not see them perhaps, but for them to be based here?

MARLES: Again, I’m intentionally being coy, but Perth is the home to Fleet Base West, and for good reason. And Perth is the home to our submarine capability, for good reason, because Perth is– there really isn't a place in Australia which is more geostrategically significant in terms of its geography than Perth.

ADSHEAD: I'm talking to the Defence Minister and Deputy Prime Minister Richard Marles. I know that you had an interaction the other day through the Seven Spotlight program talking about counter drone technology and capability. Do we need more of that, given that example that was shown of a drone being put up over a Australian warship or Australian vessel?

MARLES: Look, I mean the answer, in short, is yes, we need to be working in the space of drones and counter drone technology. I mean, I made the point today in making the announcement around Ghost Shark that the nature of warfare has changed dramatically, literally in just the last few years and we've seen that play out in various conflicts in the world. And drones is not just about things that fly, but there are drones on land, there are drones on sea and there are drones underwater. In a sense, Ghost Shark is a very large version of that in that it is autonomous and uncrewed. And what goes with drone technology is counter drone technology. And you can be assured that this is a huge effort on the part of the Defence Force now and our innovation system through Defence Science and the Australian Strategic Capabilities Accelerator is to be looking at ways in which we can be advancing our capabilities in respect to both drones and counter drone technologies.

ADSHEAD: Did you agree though, when I watched that particular TV show and I could see that people like Peter Jennings, you know, who commentate all the time around our Defence capability, say that that shouldn't have happen, the drone shouldn't have been able to sit above a Australian vessel, Navy vessel, for that long. What do you say to that? Is that embarrassing?

MARLES: Well look, I mean, I come back to what I said. We are seeking to have both the best in kind of drone and counter drone technology and there is very much developments in respect of counter drone technology happening in Australia today, and we've got, in some ways, some of the leading capabilities in the world in respect of that and capabilities which are being developed in Australia and being used in Ukraine, for example. So, we are making sure that we have all of those capabilities developed as rapidly as possible, that we're deriving the learnings from conflicts elsewhere to make sure that we are as equipped as possible. And I'm confident that we're walking down that path.

ADSHEAD: Obviously this spend – $1.7 billion – and I know you've responded to this already, but, you know, are we paving the way for that meeting that would take place between the Prime Minister and the US President around defence and what might be discussed? Are we trying to sort of say, look, we're doing our bit?

MARLES: I was asked this question today in terms of why the timing of this announcement. I mean, the timing of this announcement is firstly, a product of the work that has happened to get us to this point. And secondly, actually the timing of this announcement really is defined by January of next year, meaning January next year is when the first of the Ghost Sharks will go into service. And so, you know, working back from there, we're now making this announcement in September. Like, that’s why we are doing this. And I think, to take that a step further, you know, we are developing our own defence capabilities based on our own defence needs, and we are investing in our own defence capabilities based on our own needs. And that, in turn, is on our own assessment of the strategic landscape that we face. And the Defence Strategic Review which we undertook in 2022 and 2023 really went into this in detail. It has been the blueprint which we have been following ever since in terms of the kind of Defence Force that we need to build. And what that has yielded today is the biggest peacetime increase in Australia's defence spending in our country's history. So, that's why we are doing what we're doing. In terms of the meeting between our Prime Minister and the President, I'm sure that's going to happen at some point in the not too distant future. You know, there's obviously been a lot that's been happening in Australia since the inauguration of Donald Trump as President, not least of which has been our own election. But, you know, there was a meeting scheduled on the sidelines of the G7 earlier in the year, and that meeting, along with meetings that the President was going to do with the Prime Minister of India and a range of other countries, got cancelled, but for understandable reasons, given what was going on in the Middle East. Like, it's going– there will end up being a meeting between our Prime Minister and the President, and it won't be long, I think, before it happens. But really what we are announcing today is quite separate to that. This is an announcement which is about our capabilities, based on our needs.

ADSHEAD: Deputy Prime Minister, Defence Minister, thanks very much for your time today.

MARLES: Pleasure, Gary.  

ENDS