Radio interview, ABC RN Breakfast

SUBJECTS: Australia’s future general purpose frigates; Australian Defence Force recruitment; Middle East conflict

SALLY SARA, HOST: Richard Marles is the Deputy Prime Minister and Minister for Defence – I spoke with him earlier.

RICHARD MARLES, DEPUTY PRIME MINISTER: Good morning, Sally. How are you?

SARA: Very well, thank you. The German bids seem to have offered a lower-cost, lower-risk vessel equipped with combat systems that are already familiar to the Royal Australian Navy. Why did we instead go with the Japanese product?

MARLES: Well, the Mogami is the best ship for Australia, and in fact, over the life of the platform, the assessment is that this will be a more cost-effective platform for Australia – a lower-cost platform for Australia. One of the aspects of that is that the Mogami has a crew of 90. It’s a ship which has a displacement of 6,200 tonnes compared to the ANZAC-class frigates right now, which have 3,500. But the ANZACs run a crew of 170. So, this is a very modern ship which can operate with a smaller crew. And it’s a ship which is in production right now. And so, it is the ship that has been judged to be the one that absolutely meets the needs of Australia the best.

SARA: Japan hasn’t exported a new warship to another country previously. Do you think there are risks in this deal, and if so, how are you looking to mitigate them?

MARLES: Well, Japan has an existing production line right now in relation to the Mogami, and a production line for the upgraded variant of the Mogami, which is what we will receive. We have our slots in their production line order. We have a high degree of confidence, based on the existing Mogamis which are being operated by the Japanese Maritime Self Defense Force, that this ship will be able to be delivered on time, on schedule, and in the most cost-effective way. And it is a ship which, in terms of its capabilities, meets the needs of Australia — and meets them best. And that’s not to say anything negative about the MEKO-class frigate, which is produced by tkMS in Germany, but the Mogami is the ship which is, we judge, very much the most capable.

SARA: What does this mean for Australia’s relationship with Japan?

MARLES: Well, it is a big step forward in the relationship with Japan. I want to emphasise that those considerations were not part of this decision. This is a decision purely based on what was the best capability for the Royal Australian Navy. But having made the decision, there’s no doubt that this is a very significant moment in our relationship with Japan. There’s no country with whom we have a greater strategic alignment than Japan, and we are doing more as a result. In relation to that defence relationship, we’ve got the Reciprocal Access Agreement, which now allows us to operate from each other’s bases. That is, in turn, seeing us do many more exercises together. Japan participated in Exercise Talisman Sabre over the last few weeks. In November of last year, we announced that the Amphibious Rapid Deployment Brigade of the Japanese Self Defense Force will jointly train with US Marines and the Australian Defence Force in Darwin. So, we’re doing more and more. And this – you know, as a result of this – this is easily the biggest defence industry agreement that will exist between Australia and Japan. And so, it is a very significant moment in the relationship.

SARA: There will be a role to play later for Australian shipbuilders. What gives you confidence that local operations will be able to deliver on time?

MARLES: Well, firstly, we have said that having a continuous naval shipbuilding capacity in Australia is fundamentally important in terms of our own sovereign capability. It really is something that we as a nation need to commit to, and we believe in the longer term actually gives us the most cost-effective option. But you only get there if you actually commit to continuous naval shipbuilding – you allow people to build ship after ship and to hone their skills. We are looking at doing this transition as quickly as possible, but that won’t see ships being built in Perth until the 2030s. So, to give you some sense of timing on that: the first three are being built in Japan, and the third of those will come into service in 2034. But we are confident – and again, this was part of the bid process with the two bidders – that we will be able to work with Japan to see this build transferred to the Henderson Defence Precinct, and for that to happen from ships four onwards in Perth. And that will be a really important sovereign capability for our country.

SARA: Ships are one thing – personnel is another. We’ve seen an increase in Defence recruitment in the past year. It’s not up to the target set, but it has been an improvement. What do you think have been the big lessons from that – in what works in recruitment and what didn’t bring in the numbers that you were looking for?

MARLES: Well, firstly, I think the way you’ve described it is fair. I mean, we’re very pleased with the numbers that we released on Monday, but there is still a way to go. But the important point to observe now is that when we came to government, we inherited a Defence Force which was shrinking — it’s now growing again. And the enlistment numbers that we’ve had in the last financial year of more than 7,000 – it represents the biggest enlistment in 15 years. So, it is a big step forward. But you’re right – we’ve got ambitions to grow significantly through the back end of the 2020s and into the 2030s, and we’re going to need to continue that improvement if we’re going to meet that goal. I think, in answer to your question, we are advertising in a much better, wider range of places – and I think that is hitting a younger demographic better. The number of applications was up significantly – the largest number in five years – so that reflects that. But I think, in terms of where we need to continue to improve, is the time it takes between when somebody registers their interest in the ADF and when they actually enter service. Again, when we came to government, that number was more than 300 days. We’ve got it down to 266, but really we need it down around 125. And that is very much our focus. We are also looking at recruiting beyond Australia, and we’ve taken the first steps in respect of that with New Zealand and Five Eyes countries – but we’ve got an eye on the Pacific. I think, in time, that will have a role to play as well.

SARA: How does the Federal Government see Australia as a middle power at the moment, with the challenge of trying to bring about a two-state solution in Gaza?

MARLES: Well, I think if we’re talking specifically about Gaza, what we are trying to do is to act in accordance with the principles that we’ve had in place in Australia for a long period of time. And it’s not really a function of the size of our country — it’s a function of what we see as being the appropriate and right thing to do. We’ve long supported a two-state solution – and that’s actually been an uncontroversial bipartisan position in Australia for many decades. But if you hold that position, what one is saying is that you see the legitimate aspirations of the Palestinian people to form a state. And I think what has been completely clear over the last period is that an enduring peaceful solution – or an enduring peace – in the Middle East is not going to be achieved until there is a two-state solution. And that’s really at the heart of the thinking that is going on. Of course, there are a whole lot of factors that need to be considered in the pathway to that recognition – not least of which is the return of hostages and ensuring that there is no role for Hamas in a future Palestinian state. But what is clear is that if we want to see an enduring peace in the Middle East, that’s only going to be achieved by a two-state solution.

SARA: More than a dozen former Australian ambassadors and high-level diplomats have written an open letter to the Prime Minister urging swift action to recognise the state of Palestine. How much weight do their words carry with the Government?

MARLES: Well, I mean, look – we are considering this in the way I’ve described, and we’ve been very open and clear about the factors involved in considering this decision. Indeed, the Foreign Minister spoke, I think, very eloquently about this yesterday. Of course, we listen to the Australian community, and, you know, that’s our job as a government. So, comments like that we certainly listen to – as I think the protests that we saw over the weekend were a very powerful statement. Fundamentally, this Government is thinking this through based on what is the right thing to do here – what’s the right principle – thinking about that in the context of what has been the position of successive governments over a long period of time. Thinking about this in terms of how any decision that we make will actually contribute to making a difference on the ground. Because what we fundamentally want to see is an end to the tragedy that’s unfolding in the Middle East. The humanitarian disaster which is being played out in Gaza is an utter tragedy. And the hostages that are held there – one can only imagine how that is being felt by their families – and they must be returned. That’s what we need to see an end to. And that’s obviously, more than anything, what is informing the way in which we are thinking about this issue.

SARA: Richard Marles, thank you very much for your time this morning.

MARLES: Thanks, Sally.

ENDS