Radio interview, ABC Melbourne

SUBJECTS: Australia’s future general purpose frigates; Middle East conflict; Australian Defence Force recruitment 

ALI MOORE, HOST: Well, Richard Marles is the Minister for Defence and the Deputy Prime Minister. Richard Marles, welcome back to Drive.

RICHARD MARLES, DEPUTY PRIME MINISTER: How are you, Ali?

MOORE: I will come to the decision to choose Mitsubishi Heavy Industries, but if we can just go first to the Middle East. It has been widely reported today that Israel’s Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu is about to seek cabinet backing to fully occupy the Gaza Strip. What would that mean for a two-state solution?

MARLES: Well, perhaps I’ll be reluctant to speculate on what Israel may or may not do. But I think the important point really to make here is that to have an enduring peace in the Middle East, there needs to be a two-state solution. I mean, that has been put on display manifestly in terms of what we’ve seen play out. And it’s been the bipartisan position in Australia over a long period of time, as it has been in lots of parts of the world. And you can see this issue moving in terms of a reflection of what is playing out in the Middle East. We need to see an end to hostilities. We obviously need to see a return of the hostages – I mean, that situation is clearly intolerable. But ultimately, to have an enduring peace, we need to see a two-state solution, and that means the realisation of the very legitimate aspirations of the Palestinian people.

MOORE: Do you agree with Penny Wong – and we just heard her say – that there is a real risk there will be no Palestine left?

MARLES: Well, I definitely agree with the words that Penny said today and the urgency that is implied in – well, actually overtly stated in – the words that Penny used today. I think throughout this, Penny has actually articulated the situation well in very difficult circumstances, as well as, of course, Australia’s position. We’ve made our position clear that we want to see a two-state solution. We’ve also made it clear in terms of what the pathway to that looks like – you’re not seeing Hamas as part of any government or future government of Palestine. We need to see the cessation of hostilities. We need to see Israel be able to live securely behind its borders. And we need to see a return of the hostages. But to get to that place of a lasting peace, a two-state solution is the only way that will be achieved.

MOORE: I wonder, though, how those conditions – which also include a strengthening of the Palestinian Authority – work up against the urgency. You can say we need these conditions to be met before we will recognise Palestine, but the longer that takes, you may – as Penny Wong has said – have nothing to recognise.

MARLES: Well, and you know, it’s why all of these factors need to be balanced and thought through in terms of the steps that the Government takes. And clearly, we’re doing that. But, you know, the fundamental principles here are those that have been outlined by the Foreign Minister and the Prime Minister consistently. We want to see an end to hostilities. We want to see a return of the hostages. We want to see a lasting peace — and that’s achieved by a two-state solution being realised.

MOORE: I don’t know whether that is debated or discussed around the Cabinet table at all. But the two-state solution – long-standing Australian policy, as you say – is also the position of the UK and Canada and France. But Israel currently doesn’t back two states. And I only raise that because the world can support two states for as long and as hard as it likes, but if the two states at the centre of the motion don’t want it – or one of those two states doesn’t want it – what does that mean for lasting peace?

MARLES: Well, again, all we can do is reiterate where Australia stands. It seems utterly self-evident that there’s only going to be a lasting peace if the legitimate aspirations –and that’s how we see it – of the Palestinian people are ultimately met. Now, we describe a number of factors in terms of where the Palestinian state needs to go to be dealt with when we’re thinking about the path that we take in terms of recognition. But the two-state solution has not changed in terms of Australian policy. And regardless of the position that Israel does or doesn’t take, ultimately, we need to see a two-state solution here.

MOORE: Let’s look at the frigate deal. Why Japan over Germany? And this was brought up by a caller earlier. Do you see a certain irony – so many decades later – that the two biggest contenders to provide our defence requirements now are, in actual fact, our two biggest enemies in the last World War?

MARLES: Well, I guess the way I would answer that is – obviously that’s a long time ago – but it also does speak to the journey that we’ve been on with both countries, actually. And that’s been a very positive journey. And you can certainly see this in the context of our relationship with Germany, which is getting closer. But if you look at our relationship with Japan from the Second World War through to now, it’s a genuinely remarkable journey to a point where, you know, we were in conflict during the Second World War — we saw Japan as the biggest threat in that moment – to a point today where there is probably no country in the world with whom we have a greater strategic alignment than Japan. And that’s reflected in a growing defence relationship with Japan: strategic partnership, a reciprocal access agreement which allows us now to operate from each other’s bases, increasing joint exercises. We’ve seen that with Exercise Talisman Sabre in the last few weeks – and we’re doing more at that level.

MOORE: Do they make a better frigate than the Germans?

MARLES: So, having said all of that, I really want to make this point in relation to this particular choice right now. None of that – none of what I’ve just said – was relevant in terms of this choice. This was a choice about which is the best ship for Australia. And I want to be very clear on that – it really matters that we get our thinking right here. Capability is what we are doing when we are making acquisitions of this kind. We’re trying to achieve capability, and that is achieved by having a very clear analysis on what is the best ship for our country. Both ships were highly capable, and we really do thank TKMS, which is the German company, for the bid they put in here. And it was a very capable ship that they put forward. But ultimately, we’ve made this decision because the Mogami-class vessel is the best ship for Australia.

MOORE: There is, though, the question mark over building it here – because the first three of the frigates are going to be built in Japan, then the last eight will be built in WA. Mitsubishi has never actually built a warship overseas before. So, there is a leap of faith there, isn’t there?

MARLES: Well, there’s a process that we’ll go through. We’ve made it clear, though, the way in which we’ve sought this tender is to see a transition of the build to Australia. I mean, ultimately that is about building sovereign capability here. And we actually see it, ultimately, as being the most cost-effective thing to do. When you do have continuous naval shipbuilding operating, you can get costs right down. And that’s really what we need to achieve — both in the Osborne Naval Shipyard in Adelaide, where we’re currently building the Hunter-class frigates, but also in Perth, which is where the general purpose frigate – this frigate – will ultimately be built. But because we need to get an acquisition into service as quickly as possible – we really do need a surface combatant in the water, a new one, by the end of this decade. And when we came to office, there were none planned to be in service until 2034. The quickest way we do that is actually having it slot into the current build, which is ongoing in Japan right now.

MOORE: Think 2029, is that right?

MARLES: First delivered in 2029, coming into service in 2030. The third of those will come into service in 2034. So, you get three over that four- or five-year period. And that is a very fast acquisition for a surface combatant of this kind. That is the priority right now – to get more surface combatants into our Navy. That does give us time, though, to transition the build to Australia, which is how we see this moving forward beyond that time. And we’re confident we can do that. Now, it is contingent on the Henderson Defence Precinct in Western Australia being ready – but we are confident. A lot of work is being done there and with the Western Australian Government, and we’re confident that that will be ready in time.

MOORE: You’re listening to the Deputy Prime Minister and Minister for Defence, Richard Marles. Richard Marles, another question – just really a follow-on from a conversation that we had on this program yesterday around defence recruitment. You’d be really aware of the new ads that the ADF is running via social media and via video games. We had a high school teacher who called in and said that they know a lot of students who have applied to work in the ADF but they’ve been knocked back because they’ve truthfully answered the question: have you ever sought help for your mental health? Is that right –  that something quite simple as making a phone call when you’re in Year 10 would knock you out?

MARLES: Well, I don’t think that something as simple as that would knock you out. I mean, it’s obviously difficult to make a definitive statement without knowing all the circumstances. But again, I think the way I’d answer this is that, as we are looking to increase our recruitment – and, in fact, we had really good figures yesterday: the number of enlistments over the last financial year – that’s people actually coming into the Defence Force – is the highest number we’ve had in 15 years. And whereas when we came to government, the Defence Force was shrinking, right now it is growing again – and that’s a really, really good thing. Part of this is about having a much more sensible way in which we look at people’s health. So, we do assess people’s health as to whether they are fit for service in the Australian Defence Force. You know, in the past, issues such as endometriosis or even acne were knocking you out of service in the Defence Force – which makes no sense. We are really seeking to update all of that so that we have a much more modern and sensible way of assessing people’s health based on whether or not they are actually fit for service.

MOORE: So it’s simple, just because you’ve had contact and you’ve sought some assistance when you were younger is not a sort of, don’t be concerned about not –

MARLES: Well, I don’t think people should be concerned about that. I mean, again, it’s difficult to go into the specifics because I don’t know the specifics of this situation, but lots of young people – obviously…

MOORE: That’s right. I mean, I was going to say – that’d be knocking out a large potential recruitment base.

MARLES: Yeah. And people utilise Headspace for a range of circumstances – grief, you name it. So, we are seeking to have a much more sensible way in which we are assessing the entirety of a person’s health so that we have the broadest base of people from which to draw in order to serve in the Defence Force. And it is a really critical part of the reforms that we’re putting in place so that we can see recruitment grow. And we have made some really big steps forward in terms of getting the Defence Force growing again. But we have ambitions to significantly increase the Defence Force through the back end of this decade and into the 2030s. And to achieve that, we’ve still got a fair way to go.

MOORE: Richard Marles, thank you so much for coming in.

MARLES: Thanks, Ali.