Radio Interview, ABC Melbourne

SUBJECTS: AUKMIN, Australia-UK relationship; AUKUS; Middle East Conflict

ALI MOORE, HOST: Our Foreign and Defence Ministers have been meeting with their British counterparts in Sydney, and we’ll get to that meeting in a tick. Richard Marles is the Deputy Prime Minister and the Minister for Defence. Richard Marles, welcome back to Drive.

RICHARD MARLES, DEPUTY PRIME MINISTER: Good afternoon, Ali. How are you?

MOORE: I’m good, thank you. We’ll come back to the meeting. But as I said, the statement by the Prime Minister – the situation in Gaza has gone beyond the world’s worst fears. What does that mean?

MARLES: Well, it means what we’re seeing unfold in Gaza is a humanitarian catastrophe. We’re seeing tens of thousands of innocents losing their lives, and that includes children. And we’re seeing people desperate for food. What we must see is a cessation of the hostilities. We need to see a flowing of humanitarian assistance into Gaza. But of course, we also have to see a return of the hostages that were taken by Hamas, and that’s a critical component of this as well. It’s clearly an unacceptable situation for those hostages and the families of them that they’re still being detained. They were detained in the first place. It is absolutely essential that this comes to an end. And as the Prime Minister has said in his statement, every life matters here — every Israeli life and every Palestinian life.

MOORE: The statement, though, says that Israel’s denial of aid cannot be defended or ignored. Israel, of course, says the food shortage is not their doing. They say it is the work of Hamas. You’re not buying that?

MARLES: Well, I think that the Prime Minister is completely clear in the statement that he’s made. And it’s absolutely essential that Israel allows the flowing of humanitarian assistance into Gaza because of what we are seeing play out here. I mean, we are seeing critical shortages of food, and it is absolutely essential that we see that humanitarian aid flow into Gaza. And clearly, Israel is central to enabling that to occur.

MOORE: So, what more can Australia do?

MARLES: Well, it’s really important that we are exercising our voice internationally, that we are doing that in concert with others. Obviously, the Prime Minister has made the statement today, which is very important. On Monday, we joined many other countries around the world in making our statement in relation to this. You know, beyond that, we’ve contributed $110 million worth of humanitarian assistance for the people of Gaza — we are doing everything that is within our power to do. Obviously, we’re on the other side of the world, and our ability to influence this is not the same as other countries. But our voice does matter, and that’s why we are exercising it today.

MOORE: Richard Marles, I accept we’re on the other side of the world. But you now have one democratic government, Australia, accusing another democratic government of denying aid to civilians. It would seem that words are very little if you’re going to make that accusation.

MARLES: Well, I would say that the voice of the international community is fundamentally important here, and we lend our voice to that of the international community in relation to this. And what we are saying is being echoed by countries around the world in terms of wanting to see an end to what’s playing out in Gaza, an end to the humanitarian catastrophe, and of course, a return of the hostages. But we just need to see all of this come to an end. And it does matter that the international community expresses its voice, but we are also making our contributions in terms of humanitarian assistance as well.

MOORE: The French, of course, have flagged that they will recognise a Palestinian state in September at the UN. The Prime Minister’s statement does reiterate support for a two-state solution. Indeed, Penny Wong — and we played a little of her from your joint media conference earlier — she made the point again that Australia no longer sees recognition at the end of the peace process. So, will Australia follow suit, follow the French?

MARLES: Well, we have made the conditions in relation to recognition clear, and the Foreign Minister reiterated that again today. We have always been in support of a two-state solution. I mean, that has actually been the long-standing bipartisan position in Australian politics for a long period of time. And there is a legitimate aspiration of the Palestinian people to pursue statehood. And it is our Government’s view that a two-state solution is the only way in which you ultimately have an enduring peace in the Middle East. And that remains our view. Now, there need to be conditions in relation to that.

MOORE: And what are the conditions from Australia’s perspective?

MARLES: A number. But fundamentally, no Palestinian state can have the involvement of Hamas. We have seen what Hamas has done in terms of the terror that it has brought to bear and the appalling acts that it conducted on October 7. But it is important to underscore that ultimately, the only way that we’ll have an enduring peace in the Middle East is if there is a two-state solution.

MOORE: So, what does Australia make of the French decision if Australia doesn’t see recognition of a Palestinian state as coming at the end of the peace process, but at the same time we do not consider that the conditions have been met for that to happen now? Why is it so different with the French? Haven’t we all signed the same statement about bringing an end to the war? Where is the difference from a diplomatic and political point of view in that recognition?

MARLES: Well, I mean, the French are obviously proceeding with their position. But our position is as we have stated it. And, you know, I come back to the fundamental point — we support a two-state solution. And we want to see ultimately circumstances come to a point where the international community can see the recognition of a Palestinian state. That’s what we need to see in order to have an enduring peace in the Middle East. And I think it is about the international community doing everything within its power to work towards the conditions which would allow that to occur.

MOORE: Richard Marles, you have been meeting today with your British counterparts. I think there’s a 50-year treaty that is going to be signed over the weekend — that’s all about deepening the AUKUS pact. But it’s only the A-U-K bit — of the AUKUS. You can’t do it without the other bit. So, what happens? Do you, and does Australia and the UK, carry on regardless of what’s happening in the US?

MARLES: No, look, all three countries are committed to this, and all three countries signed a trilateral treaty in Washington D.C. in August of last year. And I was a signatory to that. And that is the treaty between our three countries which underpins the AUKUS arrangements. Sitting underneath that is bilateral treaties, which give expression to it. There will be interactions between ourselves and the United States, there’ll be interactions between ourselves and the United Kingdom, which obviously give rise to the fruition of the three-way AUKUS arrangement. And what the treaty that we will be signing tomorrow in Geelong represents is that part of the AUKUS arrangements which goes to the bilateral interaction between Australia and the UK. And that’s a really significant part of it, because when we look at the optimal pathway to Australia acquiring a nuclear-powered submarine capability, what that involves is Australia and the United Kingdom both building the same class of submarine, which will be operated from the 2040s and beyond. We’ve already announced that BAE Systems — British Aerospace Engineering — will be the strategic partner with Australia in terms of doing the build of our submarines at the Osborne Naval Shipyard in Adelaide. What will underpin the exchange of materials and products which go into the submarine, the development of training, and the exchange of people is this treaty. It really underpins all the interactions that will happen between Australia and the United Kingdom to see the ultimate build of SSN AUKUS in Adelaide commencing soon and coming off the production line from the early 2040s and beyond.

MOORE: Gosh, they take a long time. Richard Marles, just before I let you go — talking to your British counterparts — are they more likely to follow the French when it comes to recognition of Palestinian statehood, or are they more likely to follow us?

MARLES: Well, I mean, I’m not about to speak for Britain, and indeed David Lammy at our press conference today has given an eloquent explanation of the British position, which I’ll leave people to look at. You know, what we do is speak for ourselves, and our Foreign Minister, Penny Wong, made our position very clear this afternoon.

MOORE: Richard Marles, thank you very much for your time.

ENDS