Television Interview, ABC Afternoon Briefing

SUBJECTS: Australia-China relationship; Port of Darwin; Talisman Sabre; NATO; Australia-US Relationship; Ukraine; AUKUS

HOST, PATRICIA KARVELAS: I want to go back home now where we are, of course. The Acting Prime Minister is Richard Marles. He has been observing the exercise of Talisman Sabre, the largest ever war fighting drills in Australia, that is off the coast of Queensland and the Northern Territory. He's just landed in Rockhampton, Queensland. He joins us now. Now, Richard Marles, I am aware that you are not in China and you were not in that meeting, certainly there is a cabinet approach to what will be raised. The Prime Minister just confirmed in that press conference that he had raised the circumnavigation of Australia, but he said that there was no breach on international law. He has previously said that, but we were concerned as a nation about the notice and the live fire exercises. Just talk to me about that decision to raise that at that high level and what you are hoping to achieve by raising that.

ACTING PRIME MINISTER, RICHARD MARLES: Well, as you have indicated, the Prime Minister spoke about that with the President and really reiterated the position that we've been making public in relation to this from the moment that it happened. And I'd add, PK, that at the time we raised this issue with China. So, to be clear, in terms of the task group that was in the vicinity of Australia, we were surveilling it in an unprecedented way, that was the steps that we took. Our first key issue we wanted to ensure was that this was an activity, which was occurring in accordance with international law – and it was. That was the case throughout, including in fact, the live firing. That said, we made it clear at the time that we were concerned about the notice, or more to the point, the lack of notice that was provided in relation to that live firing, which did end up seeing a disruption to commercial air traffic. That was a matter that we raised with China at the time, and accordingly, you can understand the Prime Minister raising it with President Xi in his meeting.

KARVELAS: So, is the point of raising it- just to be clear- because things aren't raised without, you know, clear conversations about why they'll be raised? Is it about getting an outcome about that behaviour and next time getting notice of these things? And is that what you're hoping that we are able to achieve here and guarantee?

MARLES: Well, I think it's fundamentally about being consistent and it's about making clear what Australia's position is and the process indicating the way in which we act when we do live firing exercises on the high seas, which of course is completely in accordance with international law, we do provide notice so that there is the least disruption possible. In fact, we provide notice in a way so there is not disruption. And we will give 12, 24, sometimes 48-hours’ notice of what we're doing. Now, we made that clear at the time. We raised that with China at the time. And it’s about being consistent with China in relation to what our position is. I think that is the importance of dialogue of this kind. You know, no one is expecting every issue to be resolved between Australia and China in a meeting of this kind. But it really is important that China has a clear understanding of where we stand and that the communication is as clear as possible. That was a point that the Prime Minister was making in his remarks just now, that clear communication and dialogue is fundamentally important in terms of maintaining a relationship, particularly where that relationship has challenges around it.

KARVELAS: Acting Prime Minister in Australia at the moment, of course, your Defence Minister and Deputy Prime Minister as well. Were you surprised that the Port of Darwin and our sale and not- wanting to get that out of Chinese hands essentially was not raised by the by the President of China?

MARLES: Well, not really in the sense that, you know, the position that we've had has been well known, as the Prime Minister again said in his remarks, it's a position that he's held for a decade. We've been making our position very clear over the course of that period, but particularly in the last period as well. So, it's not a particular surprise to me in those circumstances that it wasn't raised. It wasn't something which needed to be discussed.

KARVELAS: Okay. The Prime Minister was also asked about whether he had raised the reunification, of course, of Taiwan and China. He skirted around that. Do you think that should have been raised? Why wasn't that raised?

MARLES: Well, again, I'm not really in a position to go into the detail of a meeting that I wasn't in. But again, what the Prime Minister has been really clear about in the remarks that he's just made is what Australia's position is in respect of all of this, and that is that the status quo across the Taiwan Strait be maintained.

KARVELAS: And the other thing, just before we get to Talisman Sabre, which I really want to talk about, but is that the Chinese-Australian author, of course, Dr. Yang, he was raised at this high level. The Prime Minister did say, though, that he does not expect any immediate action, but he was raised. What are your expectations about the release of this man?

MARLES: Well, again, that's not a question that I can answer- and the Prime Minister has given his own response to that in relation to the way in which that matter was discussed in his meeting with President Xi. But again, I think what's important here is that there is a consistency of position being put. We are making clear that it was raised; but at the same time, we are really prudent in terms of the way in which this is being managed and consular cases need to be dealt with in an incredibly careful manner if outcomes are ultimately able to be achieved. And I think you can look at the record of our government in relation to consular matters over the last few years to see that there have been achievements that we've been able to bring about by the way in which we've engaged. Consistency is a really important part of that.

KARVELAS: So, just on some other issues, Xi Jinping urged Anthony Albanese to maintain the renewed Australia-China relationship, no matter how the international landscape may evolve. Can we maintain it regardless, as he's requested?

MARLES: Well, firstly, we need to act in Australia's national interest on all occasions and that's what we do- and that's very much been a hallmark of the Prime Minister's leadership and the Albanese Government. It is really important that we continue to engage with China. I mean, there are clearly challenges in the relationship and we're very open and transparent around all of that. But there is also opportunities in the relationship – in trade and the like, and we seek to pursue that as well. I mean, what we've sought to do is through engagement to stabilise our relationship with China. That doesn't resolve every difference, but there are benefits that can be achieved in the process of doing that without compromising the positions that we have in respect of those issues where there are differences. That's why engagement matters and doing that in a mature way where we are engaging professionally but engaging in accordance with Australia's national interest. That's the approach that we will continue to maintain. I think you can look at the way in which the Prime Minister has gone about this visit and it's a perfect example of that.

KARVELAS: Well, you are right now very close to where some of these war games are being played out- this Talisman Sabre is currently happening. We have confirmed over the last few days that defence and actually the government has said that they expect the Chinese will surveil the Talisman Sabre war games. Have we confirmed that they are indeed that they are indeed surveilling these war games?

MARLES: Well, I mean, nothing has happened yet. But it may, it certainly has in past iterations of Talisman Sabre. So, that would be business as usual. We're obviously prepared in the event that that occurs. It will be what it will be. What is important is that we conduct Talisman Sabre in the way that we do. It is a fundamentally important exercise for the Australian Defence Force. It's the most important exercise that we undertake every two years. There's literally been months and months of work that has been undertaken by thousands of servicemen and women to get to the point of Talisman Sabre. What it does is put our defence forces through its paces, make clear that our defence force is prepared and ready to act right now in terms of the skills and capabilities that it has. It's actually a really important process in terms of certifying the capabilities of the Australian Defence Force. And also what it does is build our interoperability, particularly with the United States. It's an exercise which is jointly planned between ourselves and the United States. In addition to that, we've got 17 other participating nations in what is the largest version of Talisman Sabre that we've ever undertaken. It’s a very, very important exercise in terms of Australia's defence capability.

KARVELAS: And it all coincides, Richard Marles with the AUKUS Review that the United States that we are doing this exercise with is undergoing. Do you have any more details from your counterpart about when that AUKUS Review will report?

MARLES: Well, no, it ultimately is a matter for the United States, but we're clearly engaging with them. It’s a matter for them to ultimately speak to when they expect that review to be undertaken. But again, as I've said on numerous occasions in relation to the review, it's something that we welcome. We see it as a natural step that would be undertaken by an incoming government. It's what we did, it's what the Brits did when the Labor government was elected this time last year. And we understand why the Trump administration would want to undertake a review of such a major defence initiative of this kind-

KARVELAS: There's been a lot of leaks though, about demands they might make that no doubt you're across in relation to us spending more and also putting a higher cost on this deal, but also on the way we would deploy these subs. Are we willing to negotiate around either of those things?

MARLES: What we have is an agreement with the United States and with the United Kingdom in relation to the optimal pathway that we are pursuing for Australia to acquire a nuclear powered submarine capability. That's what we are putting into action and we are doing that at a pace. All of that is happening as the review is being undertaken. And that's what happened when we did our review with the Defence Strategic Review. It’s what happened when the Brits did their review. We kept walking forward in relation to the pursuit of the optimal pathway for the delivery of AUKUS and we continue to do that. That is happening at a pace and we're really comfortable with how that is proceeding.

KARVELAS: There is some really significant Defence news in relation to Ukraine. President Trump has threatened to punish Russia with heavy tariffs on countries that trade with Moscow if the Kremlin fails to get a cease fire deal. There's also billions of dollars’ worth of military equipment that Ukraine will now get with this deal with NATO. Is this a positive development in terms of the US? There was a very America-first-approach, but are you seeing a shift here?

MARLES: Well, look, I probably wouldn't comment on what statements have been made in the US. It is ultimately a matter for them in terms of what they have stated. From our point of view, we continue to support Ukraine in its efforts to resist Russian aggression. Our position has been consistent from the moment that Russia engaged in its immoral and illegal invasion of Ukraine-

KARVELAS: But if we're seeing a shift at the NATO conference, Donald Trump, is that a positive development when it comes to NATO, the future of NATO and the US's responsibility in helping defend Ukraine?

MARLES: Well, I was at the NATO summit a few weeks ago. There was certainly a resolve there to continue to support Ukraine. I mean, everyone understands how important this conflict being resolved on Ukraine's terms is. It is important because what's at stake here is the very global rules based order by which we all live. President Macron at the Shangri La Dialogue made the point that there is only one rules based order. You know, what applies in Eastern Europe also applies around the world, including in the Indo-Pacific. It is the same rules based order that must be defended. There was certainly a sense of resolve at the NATO summit around that issue. That is, that represents Australia's position- that is obviously why we continue to support Ukraine in its efforts. To be frank, we continue to work and have continued to work with the United States in pursuing that.

KARVELAS: Look, there's a story in the Australian that former Prime Minister Malcolm Turnbull, who is a well-known AUKUS sceptic, has had conversations about its defects with Elbridge Colby. To be clear, those conversations haven't happened while Elbridge Colby has been the Defence Under Secretary but there have been conversations. Do you think that's appropriate?

RICHARD MARLES: Ultimately that's a matter for Malcolm. But as you rightly say, Malcolm's position on AUKUS has been very clear from the very beginning, so none of it is a surprise in terms of what Malcolm is saying. It doesn't surprise me particularly that Malcolm is engaging with people around the world. But ultimately that's a matter for him. From the government's point of view, we are focused on delivering AUKUS. We are focused on ensuring that Australia has a credible long term, long-range submarine capability. It is fundamentally important for our nation. We only need to look at the map to understand how significant that capability is for Australia. AUKUS is the means by which we deliver that capability and that's why we're pursuing it.

KARVELAS: So, you're saying it's no different to his public commentary. It doesn't make much of a difference.

MARLES: I'm saying exactly that.

KARVELAS: Okay, that's good. It's a good one to clarify. Last very quick one, you've seen the Financial Times has reported that Elbridge Colby, same guy, has been asking about what we would do in an event of conflict over Taiwan. How have we dealt with those questions?

MARLES: Well, again, I'm not about to engage in, in the speculation about that or indeed about hypotheticals about the future. I mean, what is really clear in the agreement we have signed with the United States and the United Kingdom in terms of Australia acquiring this capability is that it will be a sovereign Australian capability, with all that that implies. There will be decision making by any Australian government of the day in terms of how our sovereign assets are utilised. So, I mean that is clear. It's also clear though that we work very closely with our partners, in particular the United States. I mean our military-to-military engagement is very deep with the United States. What we're seeing in Talisman Sabre is a perfect example of this. I mean this is a massive exercise, which is happening right now involving 35,000 personnel, which is jointly planned by Australia and the United States. We have our sovereign assets, we engage in that way, we work closely with America.

KARVELAS: Richard Marles, we are out of time. Thank you so much for joining us.

ENDS