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The Hon Richard Marles MP
Deputy Prime Minister
Minister for Defence
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12 June 2025
SUBJECTS: AUKUS; Middle East Conflict; US Protests.
KIERAN GILBERT, HOST: In the meantime, let's go live to Deputy Prime Minister and Defence Minister Richard Marles. I'll ask you about the unrest in the US a bit later, but I want to start with AUKUS because this is the big focus for you today, I know, and the Pentagon review that's been announced. You said you weren't taken by surprise. When were you briefed about it? When did they give you a heads up it was happening?
RICHARD MARLES, DEPUTY PRIME MINISTER: Well Kieran, we've known about the review for some time. We welcome it and we will engage with it. It's a very natural step for the incoming administration to take. The United Kingdom government, when it was elected in July, undertook a review of AUKUS and it's reported and is in fact very positive about AUKUS. In many ways, we did the same thing when we initiated the Defence Strategic Review, which did look at our entire defence posture, but AUKUS was a fundamentally important component of that and it was very much a feature of what the Defence Strategic Review looked at and made recommendations in relation to. So I think an incoming government having a look at this is something that they have a perfect right to do, and we welcome it and we'll work with it.
GILBERT: I spoke to the former prime minister and one of the architects of AUKUS, one of the leaders at the time, Scott Morrison, was on the program about an hour ago. He's very relaxed about it. I asked him, are you concerned by this announcement? He's not. Have you got a similar position? Is that your sense of things? Have you been reassured that this is just procedure here?
MARLES: Look, I am comfortable about it and I think it's a pretty natural step for an incoming government to take and we'll have an opportunity to engage with it. Obviously, I met with my counterpart, Pete Hegseth, just a couple of weeks ago and that was a very positive meeting in relation to the progress of AUKUS and how we see it going. And when you look at the comments that others in the administration have made, they have been positive in relation to AUKUS. So I do have a sense of confidence about the way in which AUKUS is playing out under the Trump Administration and that we will meet the pathway that we have committed to and that we've committed to in a treaty between our three nations. But in the context of that, I think it's totally understandable that an incoming government will want to undertake a review. One of the things which really is a function of the defence space; so much of what happens in relation to defence policy happens behind a veil. That's as it needs to be. We're talking about classified information. And so any incoming government, you know, will want to have the moment to kind of look under the hood and get a sense of where things are at and to do a review in that sense. And it's what we did, it's what the UK have done and it's now what the Americans are doing. And we get it and we'll work with them on it.
GILBERT: The Under Secretary of Defense, Elbridge Colby, he's undertaking the review. He's expressed scepticism about AUKUS in the past. In the statement released by the Pentagon, they talk about the defence industrial base, essentially that issue of being able to provide enough submarines when they need them. When you took that commitment of $500 million US, $800 million Aussie dollars to Washington, that's part of us saying, look, we're helping you with that build. Is that going to be enough to placate the likes of Elbridge Colby?
MARLES: Well, I mean, at the end of the day, it's where this sits in terms of the strategic needs of the United States. And on this issue it is such a benefit to the US; what AUKUS represents over the immediate term in the coming years. I mean, AUKUS is underway right now. Activities are happening under the banner of AUKUS. And one of those, as you just referenced, is our financial contributions to the American industrial base. That is deeply helpful for the US. But it's not just that. Right now there's 120-130 Australians who are in Pearl Harbor working on getting US Virginia class submarines to sea. They are working on the sustainment and the maintenance of those submarines. That's of huge benefit to the United States. It's obviously a benefit to us as well, they're getting the skills and the training as part of that, which will enable them to do that work back here in Australia, which is why they are there. But right now that's hugely beneficial to America. And actually the establishment of the Submarine Rotational Force–West at HMAS Stirling, south of Perth, you know, that's an important component of this. That will provide space in which maintenance and sustainment can occur. It will, with these people, also provide a cohort of newly trained humans, Australians, who will be able to work on this, who otherwise wouldn't be there. So this is really important for the US and I think that is something which is understood within the American system and certainly will form part of the review they're doing. That said, we get, and I think we've talked about this before, Kieran, that there is a big challenge in getting those sustainment and production rates up. We knew that when we signed– when we reached the optimal pathway agreement back in March of 2023. We know we've got to meet that challenge, but we're actually really confident that we can meet it. We're not sanguine about it, but we're confident we can meet that challenge. And a whole lot of the progress that we've had in the last couple of years is what underpins that confidence.
GILBERT: Your new opposite number in defence, Angus Taylor, he says that if– he had a whole series of questions and one of them was when were you briefed? You said it was for some time. When you say some time, is that weeks? Days? Can you give us a read on when you were told about it?
MARLES: We've known it for weeks, but I'm not going to go into the specifics of it. And obviously this was an announcement for the United States to make, which is why we've not spoken about it.
GILBERT: Sure.
MARLES: Look, you know, in the kind of breathless press conference that Angus Taylor gave, I'd work on the assumption that the Coalition are still there supporting AUKUS, but I think actually he and the Coalition really need to take a deep breath. This is a pretty normal and natural step that the American administration are taking. It's utterly consistent with what we did as a new government, what the Starmer government did as a new government. It's what governments do and I think will do in the future. I mean, this is a multi‑decade program where governments, in fact, are going to come and go. And when new governments come into place, I think you can– you will see them undertake reviews of this kind, and that's fine. We will work very closely with the US on it. But we're really confident about the progress of AUKUS and we're confident about how it will proceed under the Trump Administration.
GILBERT: You're urging them to take a deep breath. One of the other things I'll put to you before we move on is that he said– one of the questions was that if the review comes back with a request that Australia ups the spending, defence spending to three and a half per cent, will you do that?
MARLES: Well, I'm not about to speculate on what the review may or may not do. But more generally in terms of defence spending, and you and I spoke about this on Monday, this is not a transactional thing. This is about Australia assessing our strategic landscape, our strategic threat and from there what our strategic need is and then properly resourcing it. And that's what we've been doing; that's what the Defence Strategic Review was, it's what the National Defence Strategy is and we will continue to walk forward in terms of resourcing the defence needs that we have to meet the strategic moment. And we've been very clear that the strategic landscape that we face is complex and threatening. But it's because of all of that that you have seen to date the biggest increase in peacetime defence spending of an Australian government. So the runs are on the board. You can look at what we've been doing in relation to increasing defence spending but where we go in terms of defence spending is fundamentally a response to our strategic landscape and pursuing Australia's national interest.
GILBERT: What do you say to two former prime ministers – Malcolm Turnbull, he's calling for a review. He says the British and the US have done one, we haven't. Our Parliament's the least curious. It's time to wake up, is what he said. Paul Keating says that the US might save us from ourselves when it comes to AUKUS. What do you say to those two gentlemen?
MARLES: Well, I think– firstly I think what has become clear to me in my political life is that when you've been the Prime Minister of Australia you get the right to have views at large and prime ministers express those. So, that's fine.
GILBERT: They do.
MARLES: These are not new views from either Malcolm Turnbull or Paul Keating. I respect both of those individuals but with respect we disagree with those views. What I would say is that it's just not right to say there hasn't been a review. The Defence Strategic Review, which was really the first step that we took, or one of the first steps we took in the defence space, was a root and branch review of Australia's strategic circumstances. Something that did not occur during the Turnbull government or indeed at any time during the Coalition government. We really hadn't done one since the mid-80s when Kim Beazley was the defence minister under Prime Minister Hawke. And it was a really important step to take. And obviously that review utterly comprehended AUKUS because it was a central part of where we were going in terms of our long‑range submarine capability. We've been really clear about saying that–
GILBERT: Would it hurt to do another one?
MARLES: Kieran, we've literally just done it. What we need to do is now get on with it, which is what we're doing. You know, we've had that review. And any review of Australian defence capability starts with a long‑range capable, a long‑range submarine capability. It is the most critical strategic capability that we have and it was right at the centre of the Defence Strategic Review and the National Defence Strategy. So, Malcolm Turnbull is wrong in relation to that and we are– we have done it, we were the first to do it, which was in a sense a natural step for an incoming government to take. And we have our sense of where this all sits within our strategic framework. Now it's a matter of actually getting on with it, which is what we're doing.
GILBERT: On the sanctions against the two Israeli ministers, what do you say to those that argue this is not an act of an ally or friend and in fact you've lowered the bar when it comes to those laws around sanctioning foreign entities and leaders?
MARLES: Well, we don't accept that. We've sanctioned these two ministers in respect of their involvement of human rights abuses in the West Bank. We've done this in combination with the United Kingdom, in combination with Canada and with other nations. We've worked very carefully in relation to taking this step over a period of time and we've, as I say, done it in coordination with other likeminded countries. At the end of the day, we stand for the maintenance of humanitarian law and we come back to what we've been saying consistently in respect of what's been playing out in the Middle East. We want to see a ceasefire, we want to see humanitarian assistance flow to Gaza, we obviously want to see a return of the hostages to Israel and all of us want to work towards a place of peace. And that's the focus of the way in which we're exercising our international voice.
GILBERT: I had a Labor person earlier say to me that this is in fact the opposite, that this is the act of a friend, because your aim is to try and pull the Netanyahu government back from the brink. Do you agree with that?
MARLES: Well, I mean, we want to continue our friendship with Israel, let me be clear about that. But we want to see an end to the conflict in the Middle East and I'm sure all the parties themselves do as well. But we need to have front and centre the flowing of humanitarian assistance on the one hand, into Gaza, but also a return of the hostages to Israel on the other hand. That's all critically important. And underlying all of that as well in the longer term is the bipartisan position which we hold, which has been a feature of Australian foreign policy over governments, Labor and Liberal, for decades and that is the pursuit of a two state solution in respect of the Middle East and that would see ultimately the establishment of a Palestinian state in appropriate circumstances. But we support a two state solution. Now, all of the steps that we've taken are consistent with all of that and we really are seeking to exercise our voice in relation to that, and we are doing it with likeminded countries. Again, what we've done in terms of these sanctions is something we've been coordinating with Canada, with Britain, with others. So, that's where we line up. And all of those countries are seeking to have a good relationship with Israel in the long term as well.
GILBERT: I know you've got to go, quickly on the US unrest we're seeing in LA, now San Antonio, Texas and elsewhere, Chicago, New York. Are you, as a long-standing friend of the United States and ally, as Deputy Prime Minister, are you worried by what you're seeing there?
MARLES: Well obviously, you know, I'm limited in what I'm going to say in terms of commenting on a US domestic situation. Clearly, you know, what we are seeing unfold on our TV screens is concerning and unsettling and our thoughts are very much with the people of America in respect of this. And you know, how this is ultimately managed is ultimately a matter for the US administration and I'll leave it to them. But you know, we clearly wish the best for the United States and wish for, you know, as settled an environment as possible.
GILBERT: Richard Marles, thank you. Thanks for making the time. I appreciate it.
MARLES: Thanks Kieran.
ENDS