Television Interview, ABC Afternoon Briefing

SUBJECTS: Shangri-La Dialogue; Australia-US Relationship; AUKUS; Defence Funding. 

PATRICIA KARVELAS, HOST: The Deputy Prime Minister Richard Marles, joins us now. Welcome to the program.

RICHARD MARLES, DEPUTY PRIME MINISTER: PK, how are you?

KARVELAS: Good, thank you. You've met your US counterpart, as we just saw there, Pete Hegseth. What was discussed in that meeting?

MARLES: Well, we talked about the shared challenge that we have in terms of providing stability and security within the Indo‑Pacific, how we can work more closely together to do that. And obviously we work very closely together right now and to try and make our contribution to an Indo‑Pacific which is underpinned by the values that Australia and the United States share, which is democracy and the rule of law. I mean, it was a really good meeting. It built on the meeting that we had in February of this year in Washington D.C. and it certainly leaves me with a sense of optimism about how we can very much work together to take this agenda forward.

KARVELAS: Did you talk about the US‑Australia Alliance? Specifically encountering China's increasing assertiveness in the region, particularly, of course, the circumnavigation of Australia?

MARLES: Well, we talked about, obviously, the Alliance and the role that we can jointly play together to provide for a stable and secure Indo‑Pacific, and to provide balance in the context of the Indo‑Pacific. And so that was very much a part of that. And obviously, you know, what we are doing together in terms of the development of AUKUS was a critical component of that. And we spoke about that and how that is progressing and what that does in terms of improving our joint capability to provide for the collective security of the Indo‑Pacific.

KARVELAS: Let's talk about that, the AUKUS part of your conversation, if we can. Last time you spoke to Pete Hegseth, he was all in on AUKUS and there were strong statements made. Donald Trump, of course, later didn't even recognise the term when he was asked about it. What other guarantees have you got from Pete Hegseth in relation to AUKUS, and the commitment to AUKUS, and the delivery, of course, of our submarines?

MARLES: Well, we're moving forward together in pursuit of the optimal pathway that was agreed back in March of 2023, which now forms part of a treaty between our three countries which we signed last year. And that does see the first of those Virginias coming to Australia in the early 2030s. Now along the way we want to be seeing a significant increase in the production and sustainment rate, the availability of Virginia class submarines for the United States fleet. We are making our contributions to that financially, but also in terms of people. And that's really important because that is fantastic in terms of making the contribution to the US but it also gives really great training for Australians who are maintaining and sustaining Virginias in Pearl Harbor right now to do the same back in Australia in the future. We're doing it with our submariners themselves. We currently have submariners operating on US Virginia class submarines. So, this is moving at a pace. We are meeting the timelines that we need to. The establishment of the Submarine Rotational Force – West at HMAS Stirling is a really important step forward. It's a great opportunity for both of our countries. And you know, there are a whole lot of challenges in this obviously and we're far from sanguine about meeting all of those challenges but fundamentally AUKUS is happening and we talked about how we need to maintain the momentum of that.

KARVELAS: Of course, the most important person in the US is the President, Donald Trump. Did you talk to Pete Hegseth about, you know, Pete Hegseth's advocacy for AUKUS to the President? Because ultimately, of course, the President will be quite key here.

MARLES: Well, I mean, we spoke about how we are jointly advancing this interest as two nations. And I mean, of course the President of the United States is fundamental in terms of all policy in the US and that's really important. And you know, the Prime Minister has spoken with the President and we will no doubt watch a relationship unfold between the Prime Minister and the President as we move forward after our election. And I'm very much encouraged by the relationship which is growing between myself and Pete Hegseth in our respective roles. But fundamentally we feel a sense of confidence about how we can manage AUKUS specifically, but how we can work really closely together more broadly to be providing for security and stability in this region, and making our contribution to the stability and security of the world.

KARVELAS: We know that the United States wants to see higher levels of defence spending from lots of the US’ allies. They want to get it up to 3%. Did Pete Hegseth mention that to you?

MARLES: He did. I mean, he talked about wanting to see increased defence spending and we obviously understand that. We are– clearly we have increased defence spending significantly, and that is acknowledged. But we want to be making sure that we are calibrating our defence spending to the strategic moment that we need to meet. And so we are very much up for the conversation. And the American position has been clear and it's understandable. And that's a conversation that we will continue to have with the US.

KARVELAS: That's interesting, but obviously he knows that we've been increasing defence spending, but you're saying he did specifically raise that 3% of GDP target?

MARLES: I wouldn't put a number on it. The need to increase defence spending is something that he definitely raised. And I mean, you've seen the Americans in the way in which they've engaged with all of their friends and allies, asking them to do more. And we can completely understand why America would do that. I mean, my– what I made clear is that this is a conversation that we are very willing to have and that's one that we're having, you know, having already made very significant steps in the past. But we want to make sure that we are contributing to the strategic moment that we face, that we all face. And, you know, what Pete Hegseth’s said in terms of encouraging more spending on defence is entirely consistent with the way in which the Americans have been speaking to all their friends and allies. And I would say this was done in a very respectful and dignified way, and we understand it and we're very much up for that conversation.

KARVELAS: And your answer was that you're open to spending even more on defence? 

MARLES: Well, my answer is the one in a sense, I just gave you, which is–

KARVELAS: I'm asking again to clarify it a bit more because we know what, we know what you've already outlined. But you said you were open to increasing it further.

MARLES: We have done a lot already. But we are absolutely up for having this conversation and we want to calibrate our defence spending to meet the strategic moment that we all face. We've said this lots of times: in a rational world, defence spending is a function of strategic threat. There is definitely strategic threat in the world today, and we are rational people.

KARVELAS: Did you raise concerns about the Trump administration stepping back from aid programs?

MARLES Look, I mean, I won't go into the extent of all that we spoke about, beyond what I've said, but we very much spoke about the importance of how we can both engage with our region and to provide– you know, there's lots of ways in which and dimensions to ensuring that we provide peace and security and stability within our region. And that does involve the support of developing countries. And to be fair, development assistance is one means by which that can be done. It's not the only means. It was, in fact, the Trump administration the first time around which made a significant contribution– pivot, actually, to supporting Pacific Island countries. And so I think the importance of those countries is well understood. And again, we see ourselves very much as partners with the United States in how we can move forward in respect of that.

KARVELAS: Another issue, of course, is the Port of Darwin and getting that back in Australian hands. Was that discussed with Pete Hegseth? 

MARLES: Again– it wasn't, and we don't go into all of the details. But no, we didn't go into that. But I mean, that is an area that has been well traversed and the comments that we've made are those that we've made, and it's well understood what we're doing.

KARVELAS: Yeah, fair enough. Look, just on another issue, Minister, the ABC is reporting that up to eight people believed to be Chinese nationals seeking asylum have been intercepted by border officials in a remote part of the Northern Territory. Have you been briefed on that, given they are Chinese nationals?

MARLES: Well, look, I haven't. I mean, I'm obviously overseas right now and so I'm probably not best placed to comment on that other than to simply observe that, you know, since we have been in government there hasn't been a successful people smuggling venture to Australia and that remains the case.

KARVELAS: We talked about defence spending, so we can't not talk about this week ASPI releasing its state of defence report, which the Prime Minister actually mocked. There has been a lot of disquiet, I think it's fair to say, at the direction of ASPI under the leadership of Justin Bassi. He's a former Liberal Party staffer who was appointed to the role by, I think it was Peter Dutton actually, a couple of years ago when they were still in power. Given what the Prime Minister said, very strong comments, is Justin Bassi’s position tenable?

MARLES: Well, look, I mean, what the Prime Minister was really saying is that, you know, everyone needs to be held to account in terms of the work they do, and that includes ASPI. And what we saw, in my view, with the ASPI report is not a report which is particularly intellectually satisfying or at the end of the day, ultimately deep in analysis. And I think that's the point that the Prime Minister was making. I mean, it's the easiest thing in the world to go out there and say you should spend more. In fact, we are. We are spending significantly more. You know, there's references to the impact of inflation. Well, in fact, inflation is built into the way in which we spend and what we are spending in an increased sense is way beyond inflation. But at the end of the day, you only need to look at what we inherited from the former Coalition government, which was $42 billion worth of unfunded projects. I mean, in that instance, inflation is irrelevant if you don't actually put any money behind the projects that you announce. And that's the mess that we inherited. That's what we are now fixing up. That's what we're now moving forward with. And moving forward with a very clear strategic direction, a sense of what the strategic challenge is that we need to meet and the Defence Force that we need to build in order to meet it. Now, none of that really is given any significant airtime in this report. And it is important that people who are doing that work are held to account as well, and that when we ask institutes to do deep analytical work that that's in fact what they produce.

KARVELAS: So, it doesn't sound like you've got a lot of confidence in the work they're doing?

MARLES: Well, I'm just making the point that everyone should be held to account and that includes ASPI. And certainly I don't agree with the conclusions that are reached in this report. And I don't find what they have put forward as particularly intellectually satisfying. To simply go out there and say more needs to be spent is the easiest thing in the world to say. In actual fact there is, I mean, we have spent more, to be clear, and the most significant peacetime increase in Australia's defence spending ever. But it's also what you spend it on. And it's having strategic clarity about the direction of your Defence Force, giving shape and sharpness to the way in which we do our defence spending. And none of that was reflected in the report. I mean, it also spoke about AUKUS as being something which is impacting other areas. Again, that's not right. You look at what we have done to completely reshape the Army, as an example, which is now moving down the path of a much more mobile amphibious Army. We received the first HIMARS units, which is capability right now, providing readiness right now, much greater capability in terms of long‑range fires. Again, self-propelled Howitzers, you can look at what we're doing there. You look at what we're doing with the Guided Weapons and Explosive Ordnance Enterprise, which is not about AUKUS, where we will see for the first time this year, the beginnings of the manufacturing of missiles in Australia. Now all of that is happening again. You don't really get much of an airtime in respect of that in the report. You know, we need analysts– we need analysis, I should say, which is deep and thoughtful and which is objective.

KARVELAS: Thank you so much for joining us. Richard Marles. 

MARLES: Thanks, PK.

ENDS