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The Hon Richard Marles MP
Deputy Prime Minister
Minister for Defence
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3 October 2024
SUBJECTS: Middle East conflict; South Pacific Defence Ministers' Meeting.
PATRICIA KARVELAS, HOST: Richard Marles is the Deputy Prime Minister and the Minister for Defence. He joined me a short time ago from New Zealand, where he's meeting regional counterparts. Deputy Prime Minister Richard Marles, welcome back to the program.
RICHARD MARLES, DEPUTY PRIME MINISTER: Thanks, Patricia. Good to talk with you.
KARVELAS: Let's start on the situation in the Middle East. Fighting along the Lebanon border has ramped up overnight. Are ceasefire negotiations in Gaza now dead?
MARLES: Well, I mean, we're exercising our international voice to support a ceasefire. I mean, the United States, and a number of countries around the world have called for a 21-day ceasefire. We added our voice to that call. The continued violence in the Middle East is obviously giving rise to enormous threat to civilian life. I think the international community is desperate to see an end to this violence and certainly that's how we're exercising our international voice.
KARVELAS: Do you agree with US President Joe Biden that the Israeli Defence Force should respond with a proportional response?
MARLES: Well, Israel clearly has a right to defend itself. Of course it does.
KARVELAS: And to directly respond to this?
MARLES: Well, Israel has been the subject of attacks, obviously, from Iran, and we condemn those attacks in the strongest possible terms. They've been the subject of attacks from Hezbollah and we condemn those as of course they were a year ago in which they were subject to attacks from Hamas. Israel has a right to defend itself. Every country has a right to defend itself and to do so in a proportionate way. That said, we are calling for a ceasefire along with the United States, along with other members of the international community. The continued violence in the Middle East is giving rise to significant numbers, unacceptable numbers of civilian lives lost, and the ongoing violence is a threat to civilian life. And we, along with the international community, urge an end to this.
KARVELAS: Anthony Albanese has said Israel should prioritise diplomacy over military action. But you've just said that you think Israel has a right to defend itself. You can't do both, can you?
MARLES: Well, every country has a right to defend itself and we've consistently made that point since the outbreak. Well, since October 7 last year.
KARVELAS: Because I do think that it's confusing and I just want absolute clarity on it. You're saying that Israel does have a right to respond to the Iranian attack?
MARLES: Israel has a right to defend itself. Every country does.
KARVELAS: Does that mean specifically responding to this Iranian attack?
MARLES: We're not about to deny countries' rights to defend themselves. That said, we have added our voice to an international call led by the United States for a 21-day ceasefire, and we continue to do that. What we don't want to see is actions which give rise to an escalatory cycle, and that's really important here. Clearly, the world does not want to see an escalation to what has happened here. That is exactly why we condemn Iran's missile attack in the strongest possible terms. We don't deny countries' rights to defend themselves, but this is the moment for diplomacy and we need to see every effort being made to try and bring about an end to the hostilities in the Middle East because of the extraordinary loss of civilian life that we've seen as a result of this.
KARVELAS: You respond, if you're Israel, and then you go for this 21-day ceasefire.
MARLES: I'm not about to get into the specifics of that.
KARVELAS: Well, I think that what you're saying, with absolute respect, Deputy Prime Minister, is confusing and at odds. A ceasefire or responding, they're two different things.
MARLES: We have made very clear that we want to see an end to the violence in the Middle East. Our job here is to exercise Australia's international voice and we are making it unequivocally clear that is what we want to see. This is a dynamic situation.
KARVELAS. So, you think a ceasefire after Israel has a response to Iran? Basically, that's what I'm getting from what you're saying.
MARLES: Well, it is a dynamic situation. We can enunciate principles, which is what I am doing. Countries have a right to defend themselves. No one is suggesting anything different to that. And we have been consistent about Israel's right to defend itself from the outset. The engagement in one's own defence, it is important that that is done proportionately, and that is because we do not want to see steps taken which give rise to an escalation in this conflict. And that is exactly why we condemn the actions of Iran in firing these missiles. That said, it is really important that we, as a member of the international community, are articulating in the strongest possible voice the need for diplomacy to be engaged in, to see an end to the hostilities. And we're doing that as well. And that's completely appropriate. And the United states, along with a range of other countries, urged a 21-day ceasefire on the part of all parties. That's something that we would like to see occur.
KARVELAS: The Government has been clear telling Australians it's time to leave Lebanon. We'd heard that there were around 15,000 Australians in Lebanon, how many are now left and will you evacuate them beyond what's already been announced?
MARLES: Well, there are a significant number of Australians in Lebanon. That is true. I mean, ultimately, these are decisions for each and every one of those individuals. We have made clear, now is the time to leave. And we've been saying that actually for some time, and I'll say it again today, now is the time to leave. We have clearly, for months actually been working on preparations for a range of scenarios and contingencies. I'm not about to speculate on those scenarios now because I think it is definitely not helpful to publicly speculate on those scenarios. But, of course, be assured that we've been engaging in those preparations. But in the here and now, the critical point is that if you are in Lebanon, now is the time to leave. And what I'd also add is we've been working with our partners, particularly the United Kingdom and Canada, and we have been assisting Australians to leave over the last few days. And we will continue clearly to do that as we move forward.
KARVELAS: Is it wise for the Prime Minister to tell protesters not to carry through with their plans to demonstrate on October 7? Will that work? Will it really stop people from wanting to protest?
MARLES: Well, I think there's a few points to make here. Hezbollah and Hamas are terrorist organisations and we condemn in the strongest possible terms people seeking to protest in support of terrorist organisations. In addition to that, there are laws around the use of hate symbols and hate speech. And the symbols of terrorist organisations are that the Hezbollah flag is that. And so there are laws which apply here as well. And the state authorities who implement those laws are in the process of going through procedures right now. I think it's also worth observing that October 7 is the anniversary of a tragic and solemn day, a day on which innocent people lost their lives, the single largest loss of Jewish life since the Holocaust. It is a moment to commemorate that and to commemorate that with all the solemnity which is appropriate for that occasion. And that should be, in our view, the focus of the response on October 7.
KARVELAS: Okay. We know that protesters are saying they will defy the order, perhaps to say that they can't protest. So, what happens then?
MARLES: Well, I mean, again, I'm not about to speculate on what may or may not happen in terms of what people do on October 7. I'll just be really clear about our views of what that day means.
KARVELAS: But if they are to. This is the scenario I'm trying to paint because I think this is a real live thing that may happen. They will defy and I don't know how many, but, you know, get to the streets calling for an end to the war in Gaza and Lebanon, ceasefire, the things that you're hearing. And of course there are a range of views at those protests. So, if that happens, is it appropriate for the police to go in and break it up? Or does that further put kerosene on the fire? That's the language Tony Burke used with me the other day about Peter Dutton.
MARLES: Well, again, I'm not about to speculate on what is actually hypothetical as you've articulated it and precisely because I think it's unhelpful for someone in my position to do that. The point here is that Hezbollah and Hamas are both registered terrorist organisations in this country. We condemn people who protest in support of them. There are laws against hate symbols and the symbols of those organisations meet that test. And so there are laws that will apply here as well. And the authorities, principally the state authorities who implement these laws, are clearly acting as we speak now. That's where we're at at this moment. That and the fact that as we look to October 7, we urge people to bear in mind this is the anniversary of the loss of significant numbers of civilians, people who are going about their ordinary lives, who were not engaged in any form of combat or conflict. And it is a day to remember them. And that should be the focus of the in which people acknowledge October 7 this year.
KARVELAS: You are in New Zealand meeting with other Defence Ministers from across the South Pacific. What are you trying to work out there and are you concerned about the role China is playing?
MARLES: Well, the South Pacific Defence Ministers Meeting is essentially a meeting of those countries in the Pacific who have defence forces. It's an annual meeting and it's a really important engagement which enables us to try and build a much more efficient military community. And what we mean by that is that we are really a group of countries which have a comparatively small population and yet we are responsible for a very large piece of global real estate. And so the way in which we operate our militaries needs to be as efficient as possible. So, we talk a lot about how we can integrate more. We talk a lot about how we can ensure that there are Pacific-led responses to contingencies. Now, to be frank, the most significant threat that the countries of the Pacific face now, and a threat that engages the use of our defence forces, is actually the threat of climate change. It's mostly in response to humanitarian and disaster relief events such as cyclones, where we have our defence forces respond very quickly and we're trying to work out how we can speed up our reflexes, how we can make sure that we are in those moments as quickly as possible to afford the assistance that is needed to countries which are experiencing those sorts of events. And they are happening with greater severity and with greater frequency. So, that's actually what occupies most of the conversation that we have here and it's a critically important conversation. We obviously make clear what we want is a peaceful and stable and capable Pacific, and that means ensuring that we build our defence forces in a way which provide for the collective security of the Pacific. And again, we talk a lot about how we can do that and how we can ensure that ours is a region in which the rules based order applies. That's not said in respect of any particular country. That's said in terms of the kind of region that we seek to build. And again, that happens on a basis of a great deal of trust, shared values and shared alignment.
KARVELAS: Deputy Prime Minister, thank you so much for joining us this morning.
MARLES: Thanks, Patricia.
ENDS