Television Interview, Sky News

SUBJECTS: Global rules-based order; Ukraine; AUKUS; Espionage-related charges; Albanese Government Ministry. 

KIERAN GILBERT, HOST: Let's go live to the Acting Prime Minister Richard Marles, who joins us from Perth at a major conference. You've got the AUKUS chiefs of navy there. Now, I want to ask you about Roly Walker, though – he's the new Chief of General Staff in the UK Army – quite a stark warning, says he wants his forces to be ready for war within three years. What do you make of that timetable?

RICHARD MARLES, ACTING PRIME MINISTER: Well, I think it is another example of the fact that we are living in a world which is fragile, where the rules-based order is under intense pressure. I mean, you only need to look at what's happening in Ukraine, but also you can see it in some ways happening in the Indo-Pacific, that the rules-based order upon which we are all depending is under as much pressure now as it's been at any point since the end of the Second World War. And that along with great power competition is a key part of why we have been consistently describing Australia as facing the most complex strategic circumstances that we have since the end of the Second world War. And so, we too are very seized of this. It's why we are seeing record levels of expenditure on defence over the next four years, in the short term. It's why the tempo of activities that we are doing with our ally in the United States, but also our partners in the region with countries like Japan and the Philippines, has never been greater. We are making sure that we are as capable and as ready as quickly as we can be.

GILBERT: Is this description ‘axis of upheaval’ that the new army chief in Britain used? Do you agree with that assessment? Do you think it's a good way to describe what we're facing over coming years?

MARLES: Well, look, it's not language I've used. I think we are seeing a growing coordination, if you look– I was in Ukraine back in April and what one of the things that's really clear is that North Korea is a huge supplier of ordinance to Russia now in its conflict in Ukraine. Iran is a significant supplier of drones to Russia in the same conflict. So, you are looking at all of those countries working very closely together and we've been making the point, as was made at the NATO conference a couple of weeks ago, that China is supporting Russia in terms of the sale of dual use technology. So, there is coordination going on. I think the important point to make really is that from the moment that we saw the no limits agreement signed between Russia and China on the eve of Russia's invasion of Ukraine was the moment that for Australia, a conflict in Eastern Europe became highly relevant to us. Because we knew in that moment that what played out in Eastern Europe would represent lessons, good or bad, that would be learned across the world and in our part of the region as well. And so the world is much more connected. We need to be more connected. It's why we're much more engaged in NATO than we've been. But it's also why we are working very closely with our partners in the region.

GILBERT: In that context, given the relevance of what's going on in Ukraine, in your view, to our region, does it worry you? And what are you hearing from the navy chiefs from the AUKUS nations about this language we're hearing out of Washington and out of the presidential campaign around potentially removing support for Ukraine?

MARLES: Well, I think Ukraine is a very important theatre. What happens in Ukraine will represent, as I said earlier, lessons that will be learned across the world and in the Indo-Pacific. And that was really clear when I was attending NATO just a couple of weeks ago and the American position was also very clear there. I mean, they are seized with the significance of what's playing out in Ukraine. And again you see that in the supplemental support that was provided by the United States earlier in the year to the effort in Ukraine which has been fundamental to Ukraine moving forward. We had the opportunity of meeting President Zelenskyy amongst the countries of the IP4, which is Korea, Japan, New Zealand and ourselves. And we made very clear how insignificantly we regarded what was playing out in Ukraine for the Indo-Pacific and how committed we were to Ukraine being able to resolve this conflict on its own terms–

GILBERT: So, does it worry you? Some of the messages from JD Vance and others in terms of Ukraine?

MARLES: Well, as I say, I think Ukraine is fundamentally important and America has a critically important role to play in relation to Ukraine and we will continue to provide that advocacy to the United States. But as I say, in all the dealings that we have with the United States I think they have shown real leadership in supporting Ukraine.

GILBERT: For viewers who might be watching and looking at the drama in the United States, I think many would be saying how firm is the foundation upon which AUKUS is built? Given the drama we're seeing in the US, given the uncertainty, what gives you confidence that AUKUS has– gives you confidence in the future of AUKUS?

MARLES: Yeah. Well, firstly, it's a really important question and I can understand that question being not only asked by you, but being asked within the community. We've got to respect the processes in America. I mean, we are a democracy ourselves and part of being a democracy is having the space to go through an electoral process and allow a government to be chosen by the will of the people. And that's what we're seeing play out in America. And of course, we're all riveted by it, but it's really important that we give America the space to go through their own process. That's what it is to respect them as a democracy. But in answer to your question about why I have confidence, it's really because we got a concrete example of where all the major strands in the political discourse stand in respect of AUKUS in December of last year, and that's when the package of legislation was put before the Congress which enabled both AUKUS Pillar One and Pillar Two. This was passed with bipartisan support across the political spectrum in the United States, not just Democrats, but Republicans as well, and Trump Republicans in that number. Every engagement we've had with the Trump camp, in the normal process of speaking with people on both sides of politics in America, that there is support for what is playing out in relation to AUKUS. So, we do have a sense of confidence that irrespective of what occurs in November of this year, we can firstly look forward to the Alliance being as strong as ever, and secondly, that the equities that we have within that Alliance, AUKUS being front and centre, will be maintained.

GILBERT: Are you hearing from the navy chiefs that the timetable you want for the first rotations, I think from memory it's 2027, for the Virginia class subs. Is that on schedule?

MARLES: It is, and we're really pleased with how AUKUS is developing, but specifically that component of AUKUS, which is the establishment of the Submarine Rotational Force-West, to which you've alluded. I mean, the actual starting point was to see an increased number of visits of Virginia class submarines and nuclear-powered submarines to Australia, and we've been seeing that since the announcement of AUKUS and we will see that over the coming months here in WA. And every time that occurs we're doing more work on those nuclear submarines, we're becoming more familiar with them, we are readying ourselves for the establishment of the Submarine Rotational Force-West in a few years’ time and we are really confident that is on track, every milestone is being met. And the reason it is is because there is a deep sense of commitment amongst all three countries about the importance of this. And, you know, further to the previous answer, that commitment is bipartisan in all three countries. At the end of NATO, I had the opportunity of going, or coming back home through Britain and I met John Healey, the new Secretary of Defence in the new UK government. I mean, there is support for AUKUS there across the political spectrum in the United Kingdom and all the milestones that we were seeking to meet are being maintained and intend to be maintained by the new Starmer government. So, we are really confident of how it's progressing and that confidence is underpinned by the commitment that exists across all three countries.

GILBERT: Two other issues before you go. I know you've got a busy day, but the individuals, two individuals arrested and charged with espionage in Brisbane in relation to Russia. Some grey zone allegations, of I guess, grey zone activity in Australia. Why was it important for you today to give a reassurance that there wasn't any significant secret obtained by those individuals, according to these allegations?

MARLES: Well, I think it is an important assurance to provide. I mean, I'm obviously limited in what I can say and what I can talk about in relation to this case, but it's a reasonable question that would be asked about what level of access did the individual have and I can give an assurance to the Australian people that nothing of significance was compromised in respect of these individuals. And, you know, a thorough evaluation of that has been undertaken. We really do have confidence about that and obviously, this was a very important operation that was undertaken by our agencies. But the fundamental question from a Defence point of view is the extent to which any significant information has been compromised and I can assure you that it hasn't been that.

GILBERT: Well, that is welcome news. Finally, speculation around a ministerial reshuffle. I know that's the job of the Prime Minister, who's on leave this week. You're acting and not going to gazump him on that but either way, if there are some resignations, the Prime Minister will want to refresh the team ahead of the election, either way. Do you feel like you've got the cattle, that you've got the Ministers in the right place to win the next election?

MARLES: Well, I mean, we are confident about the next election. We're certainly not sanguine in the sense that we do not underestimate our opponents in terms of the next election and we are going to be working very hard each and every day to make our case out to the Australian people. But what we've been is a government which has been very focused on managing the economy, very focused on managing national security and we've been a government which, in doing a range of things around, for example, increasing Commonwealth rent assistance twice, has also been focused on the most vulnerable in our community. Cost of living is front and centre in all the decisions that we are making. And so we do have a sense of confidence as we walk forward about how we’ll be judged by the Australian people, but we don't take any of that for granted. Reshuffles are obviously a matter for the Prime Minister, he is on leave right now. I'm sure I will not be winning any friends with him or anyone else to walk down a path of doing a reshuffle while he's on leave. So, I'm going to leave all those matters to him.

GILBERT: Smart move. Acting Prime Minister, Richard Marles. Thanks. Appreciate it.

MARLES: Thanks, Kieran.

ENDS