Radio Interview, 6PR Perth

SUBJECTS: Indian Ocean Defence and Security Conference; Defence budget; HMAS Stirling; Australia’s contribution to the Combined Maritime Force; AUKUS; US Presidential election; Global rules-based order; ARPANSA low level waste license. 

GARY ADSHEAD, HOST: The epicentre, of course, at the moment in terms of defence and security discussion is right here in Western Australia. There's an Indian Ocean Defence and Security Conference underway. The Acting Prime Minister, the Defence Minister Richard Marles, is attending. He joins me on the line. Thanks very much for your time, Minister.

RICHARD MARLES, ACTING PRIME MINISTER: Morning, Gary. How are you?

ADSHEAD: Okay. Well, I will ask you just quickly, I mean, this conference; who's here, what are we discussing and what does it sort of say in terms of where Western Australia will sit in terms of AUKUS and all the other developments happening with Defence?

MARLES: Well, that's a really good question. And there are the better part of 3,000 people gathering at the exhibition centre for this conference and this exhibition. That's the biggest gathering in respect of defence and security ever in Perth. And I think it does speak to the fact that Perth is really– the geostrategic significance of Perth is huge. Like this is the fulcrum of the Indo-Pacific with the Indian Ocean and our burgeoning and very positive relationship with India to the west. But we're in the same time zone as East Asia, we’re much closer to Southeast Asia here in Perth, with a plus or minus hour difference we're on the same time zone in Perth as Jakarta, Singapore, Hanoi, Taipei, Beijing, Seoul, Pyongyang. This is where things are at. Now that's something that we've understood for a long time, which is why Australia's submarine fleet is based at HMAS Stirling at Rockingham. But it's also looking forward why we will have the Submarine Rotational Force-West, that's the American rotation of Virginia class submarines operating out of HMAS Stirling in a few years’ time. And that is one of the first and most significant expressions of AUKUS.

ADSHEAD: Can I ask you just a couple of the questions, and I know listeners tend to ask me when we discussed this, you know, $330 billion expansion of defence budget, et cetera. And they say once we set it all up here in Western Australia in terms of that rotation and the building of ships, et cetera, that are all happening here, the people that come to do all of these jobs, you know, the biggest question everyone has is where do they live? I mean, have you had to address that in terms of sort of what the US will do, what you will do as a government in terms of housing? 

MARLES: For sure. And, you know, we're talking very closely with the West Australian government. Defence Housing itself is obviously deeply engaged in this question around ensuring that there is the appropriate housing in the southern part of Perth down towards Rockingham, which is where the Submarine Rotational Force will be in place. It's important to understand we've got a bit of time to get this done. This is not happening tomorrow, we're a few years down the track before we see that occurring. But it is important to be planning right now, and we are engaged in that planning. But I think it's also important to understand the economic opportunity that this represents for Perth and for Western Australia. I mean, when you look at both the defence industry that will need to be engaged to support the Virginia class submarines as they operate from HMAS Stirling, in terms of their maintenance, when you look at what we have now done in terms of making a commitment to continuous naval shipbuilding at Henderson, which is the first time a federal government has committed to continuous naval shipbuilding in Western Australia, in Perth, I mean, this is the biggest defence industry proposition for Western Australia since federation and it really is going to diversify and expand the West Australian economy. It's a great opportunity for young people coming through the education system right now to work on that, you know, high tech, good, well paid jobs. And I think that is the opportunity that is there for WA and for Perth in terms of all of this activity.

ADSHEAD: Minister, just some reports that are out. Are you confirming at this stage that we will, the Royal Australian Navy take over the task force that's operating in terms of the shipping lanes in the Red Sea?

MARLES: Well, no, and I think we need to be – there is this reporting out there. I mean, firstly, we are just talking about, what is being talked about is the command structure of Combined Task Force 153, which is the task force which is there to ensure the safety of shipping through the Red Sea. We're not talking about the deployment of any Australian vessels and we've made clear that we are not deploying an Australian vessel to that effort. We are very much engaged in our near region in terms of terms of our Navy's activity. But we've been active participants in the headquarters of CTF 153, which is also part of the Combined Maritime Force, which operates out of Bahrain, and we've been an active part of CTF 153 since its inception. We've been part of the Combined Maritime Force now for decades. And the decision in terms of that command structure is actually one which lies outside of Australia. So, I'm not about to preempt that process. We're active participants in it and we'll continue to be so.

ADSHEAD: Another report on the front of the Australian, which is the suggestion that your government has shelved the development of Ghost Bat drones, which were going to be killer drones, only using them for spying when you decide to make this call. What's happened there? Have you definitely shelved the idea?

MARLES: Well, no, that report is not right. We're continuing – So, I can be really clear about that, we are very much continuing in the development of Ghost Bat, it's a very important technology. It is in a developmental stage, but we're talking about a highly capable autonomous vehicle, or plane, really, that would fly in conjunction with our fighter jets in the future. And in terms of the kind of payload that would be on that, we're looking at the full range of payloads that could be on that, which would include a lethal payload, but also surveillance payloads, which is the kind of payloads which would exist on a fast jet right now. I mean, this really emanates out of decisions that have been made in the United States. And it's right that as we develop Ghost Bat, which is being done in Australia, but being done by Boeing, so very much in conjunction with what's occurring in the United States, I mean, I think there will be plenty of opportunities for Ghost Bat in the US going forward. I mean, really, the report that we've seen in The Australian today is very much making a pretty big leap here and it is just not right. We are very much continuing with the development of Ghost Bat here in Australia.

ADSHEAD: All right, just talking about the United States, is it wrong of me to suggest that, you know, ahead of a US election there would be some level of communication going on with perhaps the Trump team to determine where he will stand on AUKUS because of his unpredictable nature on these sort of foreign policy outlooks? Do you have any concerns about AUKUS under a Trump presidency?

MARLES: Well, we don't. And, I mean, perhaps in answer to the first part of the question, we communicate with people across the political spectrum in the United States and in the lead up to an American election, it would be perfectly normal to be communicating with both sides. Now. I mean, obviously, we manage our relationship with the United States, with the administration of the time, and we are doing that very carefully with the Biden Administration, and we couldn't be happier with how that relationship is going. But in democracies, we engage across the political spectrum in America, as countries do engage across the political spectrum here when they deal with Australia. And in those engagements, we do have a sense of confidence. The best kind of example of that is that at the end of last year, we had a package of legislation which went through the United States Congress, which enabled AUKUS, enabled the sale of the three Virginia class submarines, but also created a generational change in terms of removing barriers between the way in which our two defence industries work together. Now, that legislation passed the United States Congress with bipartisan support; with Democrats, but also with Republicans and with Trump Republicans. And so every indication that one gets from that side of politics is in support of AUKUS. And I think it does lead us to say that AUKUS has bipartisan support in the United States, as it does here in Australia, as it does in the United Kingdom. And that's why all of us have, all three countries have a sense of confidence about the enduring nature of AUKUS. And I think, you know, it is important that we allow America to work through its electoral processes. Obviously, who governs America as a matter for the American people. I think Australians can have a sense of confidence that whatever occurs in November of this year, the Alliance will be strong and our equities within that Alliance, AUKUS front and centre of those, will be well placed.

ADSHEAD: Ok. I know that you've spoken previously about sort of timelines in terms of when Australia should be ready because of the geopolitical situations that occur. But did it jar you a bit when the chief of the army in the UK came out with a three year window to be ready for conflict and war?

MARLES: Well, you know, I think we see timelines of that come up in commentary from time to time. I think what is important to understand is this; you know, we are seeing conflict in Europe right now, in Ukraine. The global rules-based order is under as much pressure, not only in eastern Europe, but in our part of the world as well, in the Indo-Pacific, it's under as much pressure as it has been at any point since the end of the Second World War. We live in a fragile world right now. And that means we need to be working hard in this moment, which we are doing. Doing in respect of the relationships that we have with the countries within our region, of course, with our Ally, the United States. But also in terms of building our own capability, which is why we've got, as you alluded to earlier, record investments in our Defence Force in the here and now, over the next four years, but also over the medium term, over the course of the decade. We do face a pretty difficult world out there, but it is why we are really 100% focused on building our nation's capability.

ADSHEAD: But have your advisers ever come and said to you that the situation with perhaps Russia could escalate and that could be within three years, in terms of where Australia would sit and have to get involved with our allies? What do you think?

MARLES: I mean, there's a couple of points to make about that. I mean, all of us are watching intently what is happening in Ukraine and how that conflict plays out, how it ultimately may be resolved, what risks there are in terms of escalation, all of those contingencies and scenarios are discussed and thought through. I mean, we are talking about a conflict in eastern Europe, but the moment that we saw Russia and China enter into a no limits agreement on the eve of Russia's invasion of Ukraine was the moment that that conflict, conflict became relevant to us. Because the lessons that will be learnt from Ukraine are lessons that will be learned, good or bad across the world, including in the Indo Pacific. And so it really matters in terms of the security of the Indo-Pacific, in terms of Australia's national interest, that Ukraine is able to resolve this conflict on its terms, which is of course why we continue to support Ukraine. So, we do absolutely see that what is playing out in Europe today is relevant for Australia. That's why, for example, we're much more engaged in NATO processes, why I was at NATO just two weeks ago in Washington. But we are really mindful of the complexity of our own strategic landscape and what that demands of us and the urgency of that. And as I say, it is why we are investing record amounts of money in our Defence Force in the short term. It is also why we are very focused on building our relationships, our Defence relationships with countries in our immediate region as well, of course, as with our allied partner the United States.

ADSHEAD: Can you comment on, I know that Pat Conroy did yesterday, but obviously the question around sort of closer to home and Rockingham again and some concerns about the need for a nuclear waste storage facility at HMAS Stirling there as part of Fleet Base West and our defence capability as it expands, and of course the US bringing those nuclear=powered submarines here. What do you say to that in terms of anyone's concerns?

MARLES: Well, I think it's really important that people understand what we're talking about because I think sometimes there's a bit of a conflation in terms of what is being proposed. We will need to develop a high level nuclear waste facility in Australia to deal with the used nuclear reactors that form part of Australia's future nuclear-powered submarine fleet. But to be clear about that, we're not talking about that in any metropolitan area and we will not need to dispose of the first of those reactors until the early 2050s. And we've made clear that there'll be a whole lot of criteria applied to that being well clear of any places where people are living, making sure that we're talking about geologically stable environments, all of that with appropriate consultation. But we have a long time in which to work that through. There is then the question of low level nuclear waste, which is much more immediate. That does need, that will be generated at HMAS Stirling and it will need to be handled in the here and now. But what we are talking about there is the kind of low level nuclear waste which would be generated within our hospitals right now across the country, across Perth, any hospital engaged in nuclear medicine. Now, we're talking about cleaning equipment, gloves, rags, that kind of thing. Now, that is material that has to be handled carefully and disposed of properly. But in respect of that, we're not starting from scratch there, this is a well worn path in terms of how that kind of material is already dealt with in hospitals in Perth right now and exists in and amongst us right now. And of course, it will be handled very carefully. And that's what we're talking about needing to work through at HMAS Stirling now. And it will be done appropriately. But just so that people are not conflating the two things, we're not talking about nuclear reactors in Garden Island tomorrow. We're not talking about nuclear reactors in Garden Island being disposed of ever. What we're talking about at HMAS Stirling now is low level nuclear waste, the kind of thing that you would see generated in any hospital practising nuclear medicine in any part of the country today.

ADSHEAD: Last question. Have you met Kamala Harris in your travels?

MARLES: I have met Kamala Harris. I met her last year at an AI conference at Bletchley Park, actually, in the UK. You know, she's a very engaging person, obviously very bright. We've worked well– working with the Biden Administration, as the Vice President, we've been working closely with her. I know that our Prime Minister has spent a considerable amount of time with Kamala Harris as well. And so, you know, she is somebody we know very well in the Australian system. And obviously we will look very closely what plays out over the course of the next few months. We're all riveted to American politics, of course, but ultimately this is a matter for them.

ADSHEAD: It's a bestseller. It's probably a blockbuster movie, the way it's all playing out. I do appreciate you joining us today, Minister.

MARLES: No worries. Thanks, Gary.

ENDS