Interview with Karl Stefanovic & the Hon Richard Marles MP, Today Show, Channel Nine

KARL STEFANOVIC:

Let's bring in now Defence Minister Peter Dutton in Brisbane and Deputy Opposition Leader Richard Marles who is in the studio for us this morning. Guys, good morning to you.

First up, if I can Richard, I wanted to start with that awful news overnight with the sudden death of Labor Senator Kimberley Kitching from a suspected heart attack. From everyone here at the Today Show, our condolences.

RICHARD MARLES:

Well, thank you. I mean it's news which is completely shocking and it's very tragic. Kimberley was bright, she had a very clear sense of what was right and wrong. She was a very fierce advocate for that. I mean it feels unbelievable we're talking about Kimberley in the past tense.

KARL STEFANOVIC:

I know.

RICHARD MARLES:

You know, but more than that, she was very warm. She was lively, she was fun to be with. I mean she a is a loss to us, obviously. She's a loss to the Senate, she's a loss to the country. And I just – you know, I can't stop thinking about Andrew, her husband. I mean the sadness. I mean, the tragedy for him is unspeakable.

KARL STEFANOVIC:

Thank you for sharing. It's not easy, but appreciate it. Pete, tough day, no matter what side of politics you're on.

PETER DUTTON:

It sure is Karl. I really feel for Richard because I know that he and Kimberley were very close, and the entire Labor family, it's devastation. You know, we talk sometimes about the good and bad on both sides of politics. Well, Kimberley was one of the very best and I used to catch up with her – in fact we were going to catch up on the Sunshine Coast over Christmas but weren't able to – and she was just one of those people; vivacious, incredibly intelligent, as you point out and she was a real hawk on national security matters, and I think the Parliament will miss her. I think our country's poorer for her passing; and at 52, there's devastation obviously for everyone who knew her, but mostly of course, as Richard rightly points out, Andrew and the family and her close friends. It's just shocking news, and just unbelievable, as Richard points out. So it's a tough day I think for the Parliament.

KARL STEFANOVIC:

Okay. Thank you for sharing that, guys. It's not easy.

Let's move on with the news of the day now, if we can. Pete, you were pushing to expand the military before now, but now – look, you've been horribly outspent by Labor.

PETER DUTTON:

I'm not sure your maths is as good as it could be Karl. I just want to make that obvious point. We've seen examples in the past, but now today's the latest. I mean look, you'll always be outspent by Labor – it doesn't matter what happens – because they tax and they spend. That's what they do. But the fact is that when they were in government they cut money from defence. You can talk a big game in opposition – it's like they did on border protection, that they'd keep the borders closed and that they had be an economic conservative like John Howard – it doesn't happen when they're in government.

They cut funding in defence down to 1.5 per cent of GDP. We've increased that to 2.1 per cent. It means that we've had $55 billion additional that we've been able to spend in defence areas since that time and I'm here in Brisbane at the moment with Trevor Evans. This is a $650 million project behind me – local jobs and a huge multiplier into our local economy. So I think you want to look at what people do as opposed to what they say they'll do.

KARL STEFANOVIC:

Richard, you are willing to spend more than it seems the Government. Labor does like debt, even more than Josh Frydenberg.

PETER DUTTON:

Well, let's stick with defence. I mean it doesn't count in terms of the Government's spending if they spend tens of billions of dollars on submarines which don't exist. I mean they have wasted an awful lot of money here.

KARL STEFANOVIC:

They are coming.

PETER DUTTON:

In the 2040s. In the 2040s. But I mean, I think, like, we are going to spend more in defence going forward. Our expenditure on defence should be a function of our threat, really. I mean as the boffins will talk about it, our strategic circumstances.

KARL STEFANOVIC:

What would you spend now to make Australia safer tomorrow?

PETER DUTTON:

Well, I think where we're at now in terms of 2 per cent is right, but I also think that we – in terms of 2 per cent of GDP – but I think the situation that we're in is becoming more precarious. And you know, Peter's right when he describes that and I think that is going to demand greater defence spending.

But the point I would make is I think the Government's got to do better than a series of announcements about defence expenditure in the 2040s when those announcements were all being made in an attempt to change a conversation five minutes from midnight. I mean this Government will go into caretaker in a matter of weeks. What size our Defence Force should be in 2040 does deserve a whole lot of consideration. It might need to be bigger than what they're talking about, but the idea that we're sort of making those announcements now without talking with the parties of government, reaching a bipartisan position, doing it in a deliberate way, but making it an election thing is ridiculous.

KARL STEFANOVIC:

Pete, the flood crisis, should you have got more ADF into northern New South Wales, and quicker?

PETER DUTTON:

Karl, the answer is no. I mean we had people pre-positioned. We had assets pre-positioned. I know there's been criticism of the ADF out there, but the planners looked at the circumstances both in Queensland and in New South Wales, they made judgments about where they were moving people to, including Oakey, including the south east corner, and then obviously it's followed south now to include the Sydney Basin where we've got about 1,600 people working there. We've increased gradually as we've been able to access areas in New South Wales.

It has been an easier undertaking I have to say in the south east corner. We've worked very closely with the Brisbane City Council, with Adrian Schrinner and also with the Premier of Queensland – and largely that's because Queensland is used to natural disasters, and so the taskings that came from the SES or Emergency Management Queensland were immediately undertaken by the Defence Force.

It's been a little more difficult and, I think, frankly – and this is no criticism – but the SES and the emergency services in New South Wales were completely overwhelmed by what had happened in northern New South Wales. So when you look at the thousands of troops…

KARL STEFANOVIC:

So why didn't you declare a natural disaster sooner? Why didn't you declare a natural disaster sooner?

PETER DUTTON:

Well because I don't think, again, it's similar to what happened in Grantham in 2011, the obviousness that's there now, in 20-20 hindsight is not there in the opening hours and there are isolated communities where they don't have telecommunications, they haven't been able to even call the police to report their circumstances or the fire brigade or a rescue, you know, organisation like the SES.

But our people rescued 113 people off their roofs. That was the initial response. There were many hours, many days where they were the only helicopters in the air because of the weather and that's the initial response. And the thought that we could drop our people into areas where we're lifting those who are stranded on the tops of their roofs, and that somehow our people can start [inaudible] before the waters have receded, I just think it's completely unfair.

I was talking to a couple of diggers last night at a function in Brisbane, and they're devastated by the thought that their work could be demeaned by, you know, a lot of cheap commentary that's around.

KARL STEFANOVIC:

I agree with that.

PETER DUTTON:

Including by Labor. And I just won't accept it.

KARL STEFANOVIC:

I agree with that. What do you think?

RICHARD MARLES:

Well, there's no criticism of Defence. The people who wear our uniform have done an incredible job throughout this crisis. I was in Lismore on Monday; I saw that firsthand. There's criticism of the Government, and the Government and Defence are two different things. And that's a really important point to make.

I think what came through to me when I was there on Monday, you know, there were agencies and assets on the ground. There was the ADF on the ground and they were doing a great job, SES, police. What there wasn't was coordination of all of that, leadership. And it's in that sense that the declaration of a state of emergency I think has come too late. It really should have happened a week ago so that leadership could be put in place.

And, you know, I hear what Peter says about, you know, no-one has the benefit of 20-20 hindsight, but this is a Government which you should have thought would have learned something from crises in the past, and it seems the only thing that Scott Morrison learnt from the bushfires was not to take the media when he goes and meets people.

KARL STEFANOVIC:

Gentlemen, thank you for being with us on this Friday. And, again, condolences on the passing of the Senator. I appreciate your time today.

RICHARD MARLES:

Thank you.

KARL STEFANOVIC:

In the meantime the Prime Minister will be live on Weekend Today this Sunday.

[ends]