Afghanistan, Secretary of Defence Dennis Richardson, Australia-China Relations

PATRICIA KARVELAS:

As you may have heard today, the US has asked Australia to commit more troops in Afghanistan – this comes ahead of a NATO meeting later this month.

Senator Marise Payne is the Minister for Defence and I spoke to her a short time ago.

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PATRICIA KARVELAS:

Minister, welcome back to RN Drive.

MINISTER PAYNE:

Great to be here, Patricia.

PATRICIA KARVELAS:

How many extra troops are you considering?

MINISTER PAYNE:

Well, this is a work in progress, I think would be the best way to describe it, Patricia.

There's a number of issues which Government needs to consider. We need to consider the request from NATO, and that is still developing. You would know that NATO leaders are meeting late next week and NATO Defence Ministers again later in June, so that's part of the process.

We also have to bear in mind our current commitments, existing commitments in Afghanistan, our commitments in Iraq and Syria, and to a number of other operations around the world. So we will take advice from the Australian Defence Force and the Defence organisation, and we'll consider that in a timely manner with the National Security Committee process.

PATRICIA KARVELAS:

Are you considering sending special forces to Afghanistan?

MINISTER PAYNE:

So there's no detail of that nature, Patricia, in the discussion at this point. It is in preliminary discussion, what we are doing now, and I think it's important to remind ourselves of this.

It's very much in the training aspect, particularly in terms of the Officer Academy in Afghanistan. That is our focus. We don't have combat troops in Afghanistan, and I would expect that the work we will do will follow similarly in that training context.

PATRICIA KARVELAS:

So special forces has been an issue that's been raised. That would be the first request, or the first line. Is that something that you understand to be under direct consideration?

MINISTER PAYNE:

I'm not sure by whom that has been raised. It hasn't been raised directly with me, but what we are looking at is the work that we are currently doing, which is very important in terms of officer training at the National Officer Academy in Afghanistan, and potentially I think our extension would reflect the work we're currently doing.

PATRICIA KARVELAS:

So more of what we're already doing. How much more of what we're already doing?

MINISTER PAYNE:

Well, we have 270 personnel on the ground in Afghanistan. The majority of them are involved in the training context, and some are embedded in the NATO operation, and I met with a number of them when I was in Kabul in August of last year.

So it would not be a large number, I think, in terms of the contribution we already make – it is a considerable one, and we also make the second largest contribution financially to the Afghan National Trust Fund. So Australia has been heavily engaged over a long period of time, we continue to be so, but in terms of this request we have of course a number of aspects to consider.

PATRICIA KARVELAS:

You say it wouldn't be large. When you say that, could you quantify the kind of dimensions of what it would be if it wouldn't be large?

MINISTER PAYNE:

I think that's a matter for us to look at with the ADF and NATO itself.

PATRICIA KARVELAS:

Just some broad parameters of what that means. I mean, what that means to one person might mean something very different to another.

MINISTER PAYNE:

Well, this is true, and certainly if you're one of the men and women that we ask to deploy in that context it obviously has a very significant meaning for those who are serving for us. The numbers are not even close to finalisation, Patricia, so we are still very much in the early phases of this discussion. The Prime Minister has had a conversation with NATO leadership in Kabul himself.

I spoke with Secretary Mattis about it briefly when we were in Copenhagen earlier this week, although the Copenhagen meeting was focussed on the counter-ISIL activity. So it is very much early days and we will take a suggestion to Government from Defence in conjunction with the Prime Minister in due course.

PATRICIA KARVELAS:

When you say due course, are we talking over the next couple of weeks?

MINISTER PAYNE:

I would expect it would take some weeks to determine the specific areas in which NATO think we can make a further contribution, and in which we think we're equipped to make that contribution, and to bring that discussion to fruition. But I don't want to put a timeline on it. It is, it's fair to say, an extraordinarily dynamic environment. It is still a dangerous environment – there is no question about that – but we are determined as a nation not to allow terrorism to take hold in Afghanistan again and to make our contribution in preventing that.

PATRICIA KARVELAS:

Marise Payne, you mentioned that when you make this final decision one of your deliberations will be Australian troops across the world and where else they're deployed. Does that mean you'll look at pulling away from other missions in the Middle East in order to fulfil this NATO demand?

MINISTER PAYNE:

No, not at all. It doesn't mean that in any way. It means that it requires us to look at the commitments we already have about where they are placed, what they are doing, and where we're able to add value in terms of the Afghanistan engagement.

PATRICIA KARVELAS:

The Australian troops currently stationed in Afghanistan are working to train the Afghan Army, as you've mentioned. So you're saying these additional troops could also conduct training?

MINISTER PAYNE:

Yes, or similar sorts of activities. But as I say, this is a matter for Government. We are at the beginning of the consideration process, not the end, and there are a number of issues which we would obviously take into account when we make our decisions.

PATRICIA KARVELAS:

They won't be involved in combat?

MINISTER PAYNE:

No, this is not the role that Australian troops have. Our Australian troops are involved very much in the training capacity.

PATRICIA KARVELAS:

The US Director of National Intelligence Dan Coats says the security situation in Afghanistan will almost certainly deteriorate through 2018, even with a modest increase in military assistance by the United States and its partners – of course, that includes us. Given this, are you concerned about sending more Australian troops in that climate?

MINISTER PAYNE:

I am always concerned about the placement and positioning of Australian troops. That's why we have, at the forefront of our planning, force protection activities which ensure that we put the best possible support and protection around the soldiers that we possibly can. That is axiomatic in terms of our planning; that is what we do and we will do it again in this circumstance as well.

PATRICIA KARVELAS:

Do you agree with that assessment that- and what is the advice you're getting about the deteriorating situation in Afghanistan?

MINISTER PAYNE:

There is no question that the situation is very challenging. The Taliban continue with their activities, we have seen the United States recently take action against ISIS' Khorasan province just a couple of weeks ago in terms of their literally underground activities in that case, so there is no question that it is a very challenging environment in terms of safety for both Afghanis and, of course, for troops that are deployed there.

PATRICIA KARVELAS:

Not only challenging – because, of course, it's always been challenging – but deteriorating.

MINISTER PAYNE:

We've seen the Taliban and ISIS efforts to make progress in the communities, and we expect that there is always a surge around this time of year. We have seen that before, we'll see it again. We are very focused on the task at hand, which is making sure that we participate in equipping the Afghan National Defense Force to play their part in the security and stability in their own country and that we will support members of the Coalition with whom we are working in the operation, and that is what we do.

I met President Ghani just a couple of months ago when he visited Australia. He knows what he and his countrymen and women are asking of the international community, but he also knows that if we don't continue to take a stand, if we don't push back and maintain the strength of our position against allowing terrorism to take a foothold again in this country, then we will all pay the price, and Australia is certainly not prepared to do that.

PATRICIA KARVELAS:

If you're just tuning in to RN, this is RN Drive and my guest is Marise Payne, the Defence Minister. The current commitment is scheduled for at least two more years. That takes Australia's commitment to Afghanistan to 18 years. How long is Australia prepared to continue a military commitment to Afghanistan?

MINISTER PAYNE:

Well, it is already our longest ever military engagement in terms of Australia's military history. I don't think it's possible to actually, or appropriate, to put a timeline on that.

We are working closely with the international members of the NATO force. We are working closely with the Afghani Government to make the contribution that we do. To be able to draw a line in the sand and put a date on the day we say terrorism will not be able to take a foothold in Afghanistan, I don't think that that really adds to the discussion at this point. We have to assess the circumstances and the operational environment in which we find ourselves today. That's what we will do and that's how we will make our plan.

PATRICIA KARVELAS:

The Afghan Government is struggling to deliver services and to tackle corruption. Are you worried about its stability?

MINISTER PAYNE:

Well, as I indicated, both I and the Prime Minister and the Foreign Minister, have met recently with President Ghani, and we regularly indicate that the importance of security and stability in the country is of the utmost importance. He is very much aware of that. His own defence forces are aware of that. His own government is aware of that. But it is fair to say that the challenge that the terrorists pose – whether they're from the Taliban, whether they're from a variant of ISIS or Daesh – the challenge that they pose is a significant one and it takes a great deal of effort, which the international Coalition and the Afghan Defense Forces themselves are very much focussed on to address that and to combat it.

That's what we're working towards; that's what we are working with them for. And I really do want to pay tribute to the men and women of the ADF who are part of that process, who are part of that contribution to ensuring that we prevent terrorism taking the sort of hold in Afghanistan that would pose a threat to us across the world.

PATRICIA KARVELAS:

Just on another issue before I let you go. Outgoing Chief of the Defence Department Dennis Richardson spoke at the National Press Club today. He says that China does spy on Australia, saying – and I quote: ‘They do engage in some activities in their communities which I think would be considered unreasonable by most Australians.’

It's a pretty strong statement for the outgoing Chief of the Defence Department to make. Should we be concerned?

MINISTER PAYNE:

Well, we are always concerned about our security, we're concerned about our national security – it's one of the key focuses of the Budget, for example – we're concerned about our cyber security. We deploy men and women around the world in the name of protecting Australia and Australians.

In terms of the Secretary's comments – and I think though it is 5:30pm I possibly can't call him the Secretary of the Defence Department anymore – in terms of the Secretary's comments, that is a clear-headed analysis from his perspective and we are very clear with our regional colleagues, and more broadly in fact, that that sort of behaviour is unacceptable and it is not the way that Australia wishes to see business done.

PATRICIA KARVELAS:

He also said I think Australia's relationship with China and the United States will continue to be able to be summarised simply: Friends with both, allies with one. Is that something you agree with?

MINISTER PAYNE:

I think that's a reasonable assessment. We have China which in terms of trading partner significance, it is enormous. We have a long-term commercial and trading relationship which is very, very important to us. We welcome China's leadership here and have recently hosted Li Keqiang here just some months ago. The relationships and the personal relationships which we have seen develop in recent years are very, very important.

That is completely different, though, I think from the historical relationship we have with the United States and the depth of the Alliance that formed that relationship. Just now we are commemorating the 75th anniversary of the Battle of the Coral Sea, commemorating it with the veterans and with serving members now of the US armed forces and the Australian armed forces. That sends a very strong message – I think, a very powerful message – about our history and certainly about the strength of that Alliance.

PATRICIA KARVELAS:

Marise Payne, thank you so much for joining us.

MINISTER PAYNE:

Thanks, Patricia.