Radio interview with Jonathan Green, ABC RN Drive re. Japan 2 + 2 Ministerial Meeting, North Korea, Mosul chemical attacks, Dennis Richardson

JONATHAN GREEN:

Julie Bishop, Foreign Minister, Defence Minister Marise Payne currently in Japan for talks on regional security. There's a bit of talk, that sort of talk, about elsewhere as well. It's more important now than ever.

Meanwhile, the Middle East, Australian advisors embedded with an Iraqi Army unit were the subject of a failed chemical attack by IS on the city of Mosul. Back home, the Secretary of Defence Department, Dennis Richardson, a legend of the Australian public service, he'll retire in May. There's a bit going on in and about the defence portfolio. Marise Payne is the Minister and joins us from Japan.

Minister, welcome.

MARISE PAYNE:

Good afternoon.

JONATHAN GREEN:   

There's a war of words currently being waged between North Korea and the US. How worried should we be? What's the risk for Australians? 

MARISE PAYNE:

Well I think it is very important not to underestimate the seriousness of the situation. We have made very clear in our observations in relation to North Korea, that we absolutely condemn their missile launch, the most recent one and its predecessors and similar provocative activities. They are indeed in complete breach of their international obligations.

There's a number of UN resolutions which pertain to this and we have urged the DPRK to observe those and we have also been very clear -  the Prime Minister, the Foreign Minister and myself - have been very clear that those who have influence over North Korea and most particularly our colleagues in China can play, and should play, a very important role in this. It's a matter which they can prevail in if they take some of the more serious steps that we've spoken about. They have leverage and the Prime Minister and the Foreign Minister have both spoken about that.

JONATHAN GREEN:

More precisely, what would you expect China to do?

MARISE PAYNE:

Well these are matters of course for the Chinese Government but I would observe and I think the Prime Minister made this point this morning on the AM program on ABC, he indicated that the North Koreans rely very strongly on China for their economic lifeline. China can take steps in that regard.

These - as you began with in your question, Jonathan, are very serious circumstances and ones which we hope those who can exercise leverage with relation to North Korea, do so.

JONATHAN GREEN:

You're meeting with your Japanese counterparts and in Japan, far more proximate than us to North Korea. There must be a considerable sense of almost touchable tension within Japan over the rising temperature there.

MARISE PAYNE:

Well I'm meeting first of all this evening with Defence Minister Tomomi Inada and indeed it's timely to acknowledge that this is the tenth anniversary of the signing of the Joint Declaration on Security Cooperation between then-Prime Minister Howard and then-Prime Minister Abe in 2007 between Australia and Japan.

The relationship has progressed significantly both in its depth and in practical cooperation. I think it's a very good reflection of an effective declaration on security cooperation. That is not to diminish however the seriousness with which the Japanese Government, certainly the defence organisation views matters occurring in North Korea as well and both Prime Minister Abe and Defence Minister Inada have made statements in relation to that too.

JONATHAN GREEN:

And Vice President Pence in Japan this week and his standout quote there “the era of strategic patience is over”. He agrees with President Abe that China needs to be the circuit breaker here but there's - I mean the approach of the Trump Administration is interesting me. Last week they announced that the armada of US ships was heading to the Korean peninsula as a powerful signal to that regime. In reality those ships were in the Indian Ocean on exercise with the Australian navy. Do we - these are curious messages from the US here.

MARISE PAYNE:

Well what Vice President Pence said and it again reflects the discussion we were just having is that Japan, the United States and the allies across the region and China need to work to bring both economic and diplomatic pressure to bear on North Korea until they respond to that pressure in relation to their nuclear and ballistic missile programs. But I understand and frankly given what we've seen in recent times, I think the responsible members of the international community understand why the United States will come to the point where they say the time for strategic patience is past. It is a matter with which we need to engage on very seriously.

JONATHAN GREEN:

But as Defence Minister, you must have been aware of the location of those American ships as they were on exercise with Australian ships. Did your jaw hit the floor somewhat when the Trump administration gave us to understand that they were just off Korea?

MARISE PAYNE:

Well I'm not going to go into the details of information that was provided to Australia through the ADF or otherwise but certainly the administration and Pacific Command indicated that the USS Carl Vinson strike group would head in that direction. That has been the case, albeit they started, of course, from a position which we were well aware of.

JONATHAN GREEN:

It's a bit problematic in this war of words, of bluff and counterbluff, when one side's bluff is sort blown out of the water, as it were, so readily there.

MARISE PAYNE:

I think that's an unfortunate metaphor, Jonathan.

JONATHAN GREEN:

That armada's now on its way, Minister as you say, to the Sea of Japan, according to Australian Navy officials who I'm sure we can trust. Japan, there were reports last week that Japanese vessels would join, is that still the plan?

MARISE PAYNE:

Well, I look forward to discussions with Defense Minister Inada this evening, as I said, and two-plus-two discussions with my colleague Julie Bishop and the Foreign Minister and the Defense Minister of Japan tomorrow, and I'm sure we will have more to say after those in relation to those sorts of activities.

JONATHAN GREEN:

To Iraq, Minister, military advisors not affected by that chemical attack by IS overnight, but is it likely that they may come into harm's way in that way again?

MARISE PAYNE:

Well, we would obviously reject completely the use of chemical weapons in that way. No Australian personnel, though, were exposed during the gas attack on Iraqi-bound forces in Mosul. What we were able to do, and this reflects the efforts of our advise and assist mission, was for Australian medics at a secure base outside Mosul to provide first aid to the Iraqi soldiers who were affected by the gas attack.

We are obviously very aware and very conscious of the need to employ a range of strong force protection measures to enhance the safety of our deployed personnel throughout Iraq, and that includes in this context

We are always and the ADF is always reviewing what operational threats we face and ensuring that our force protection measures are adapted accordingly.

I'm sure you will understand that I'm not going to go into greater detail on force protection measures in a public discussion in terms of operational security reasons, but that is paramount in fact, in our thinking.

JONATHAN GREEN:

As we'd expect it to be. I wonder what the use of chemical weapons tells us about the state of that battle for Mosul?

MARISE PAYNE:

Well, it tells us, I think, that Daesh is desperate, that Iraqi ground forces are pushing hard in their operations to liberate Mosul, and this reflects a level of desperation that is, whilst troubling, is unsurprising.

The remnants of Daesh who remain in Mosul, in a very difficult part of the urban centre, are fighting very hard to retain that part of ground. And let's not forget what has been achieved by the Iraqi security forces in recent months in terms of the acquisition of ground by them and their efforts, supported by members of the international coalition of course, but they have been important steps in the progress. 

This is a last, tough fight for the liberation of Mosul. The Iraqi security forces are very strong in their commitment, and so are we as members of the international coalition, particularly in that advise and assist context.

JONATHAN GREEN:

But the Australian forces involved clearly acted with courage and skill in this incident and yet the information following this chemical attack came from the Pentagon. Why didn't the ADF release this information concerning Australian troops. 

MARISE PAYNE: 

Well, as I understand it, in fact ours was a part of our operation in the advise and assist context, given that no Australian personnel were exposed during the gas attack, which was on Iraqi ground forces, the Australian medics did their job as part of our SOTG mission and I think that the appropriate measures were taken.

 JONATHAN GREEN:

 Extraordinary news today, Minister, Dennis Richardson, secretary of your department, will retire. Five decades of extraordinary and distinguished public service.

 MARISE PAYNE:

I am so glad you asked me that question, Jonathan. It gives me an opportunity to place very firmly on the public record what an extraordinary contribution that is to public service, no matter how you describe it, in the Australian context 

I have worked with Dennis Richardson since becoming Minister of Defence very closely, but as a Senator in the Parliament now for over 20 years. I have known Dennis in his roles at DFAT, I've known him in his role as Head of Intelligence at ASIO, obviously as Ambassador to the United States. He has excelled and been an extraordinary public servant, and one with whom it has been a great pleasure and, indeed, a great honour to work. As I said in my public statement on this matter today, I have never been in any doubt about Dennis' view on any subject and it's an absolute pleasure to work in that context, although sometimes a little confronting. 

JONATHAN GREEN: 

It must, for a minister, leave a slightly anxiety-making hole when someone of that experience and stature walks away from your department? 

MARISE PAYNE: 

Well, I think for a government, the important lesson to be learned is how we value our senior members of the public service, in whatever role they execute, and how we learn from their experience and what they have given over many years. I'd like to think that I've learnt a great deal, in even the last 18 months, but certainly the two decades preceding that as I've observed Mr Richardson at his ‘dark arts’ of public service. I think for governments, it also presents an extraordinary opportunity and I look forward to continue to work with the Prime Minister and my colleagues, and a replacement to Mr Richardson, if that is ever possible, will be announced in due course.

JONATHAN GREEN:

 Very courageous, Minister. Thanks for your time.

 MARISE PAYNE:

Thank you very much.