Transcript – Minister for Defence – ABC RN Drive – 10 November 2016

PATRICIA KARVELAS:

The Trump campaign was certainly muscular on Foreign Policy and Defence. It remains to be seen how much the President-elect will follow through on this and what effect, of course, it has on Australia and our strategic interests. Marise Payne is the Minister for Defence and I spoke to her a very short time ago.

Marise Payne, welcome to RN Drive.

MINISTER:

Good afternoon, Patricia.

PATRICIA KARVELAS:

Australia’s Defence Policy White Paper, released earlier this year, assumes what Julie Bishop said yesterday, and that is that the US will continue to be the guarantor of peace and stability in the region. But Donald Trump has talked about Japan and Korea having nuclear weapons to protect themselves against North Korea. Isn’t it the case that the old rules just don’t apply anymore?

MINISTER:

I think that this is an alliance which is perhaps slightly different, the US-Australian context. The Chargé d’Affaires this morning from the US Embassy was remarking that the stability and the history that this alliance represents, I think he said it was exactly the sort of platform that Donald Trump would support and would think was very positive. That in itself I think gives Australia almost a unique position of engagement with the US, and one that, as the Foreign Minister has said, we will be seeking to make the most of our opening engagement with the new administration when that occurs.

PATRICIA KARVELAS:

But Donald Trump has talked about Japan and Korea having nuclear weapons to protect themselves. Is Australia still concerned about that? Because given he said that, you would expect that he would execute his policies.

MINISTER:

Well, I think that the context of an election campaign and then the context of the establishment of a new administration are, from the experience of most politicians, not always, you know, x equals x at the time and then is implemented in exactly the same way. I don’t think we’re talking about, perhaps, the implementations of policies in the terms that you have put it.

What I do think that we can rely on, though, is the great depth of our relationship, the deep levels of cooperation over such a long period of time, more than 65 years, in terms of the ANZUS Treaty itself and longer in terms of the conflicts in which we’ve fought together side by side. So that will help us meet contemporary and emerging challenges. It will help us identify key issues in our region, and if the United States extends the discussion beyond that, then we’ll deal with that when that happens. But most importantly, most importantly in terms of regional stability and regional security, we know that it’s been the strength and the presence of the United States for decade after decade that has contributed so strongly and in such a valuable way to that.

PATRICIA KARVELAS:

Those at NATO are nervous. Trump basically disregarded the treaty that’s been the keystone of global security post-World War II. He indicated that under his presidency, the US would only come to the aid of NATO members who have paid their bills. Surely this is evidence he won’t stick to the norms of international relations. If he does, again, execute that policy that he articulated during the campaign, Australia would be concerned.

MINISTER:

Well, again Australia is in a strong position. We are a very significant contributor and do more than, perhaps colloquially, just pay our bills, as it were. We, in a number of areas, go above and beyond in terms of the contribution that we are able to make. I think we value add, I think we are well-acknowledged for our strategic commitments in that regard and have been for a very long time. In terms of relationships around the world, I would expect an elected- a newly elected Government and a change in administration to look very carefully at those, but at the same time, I also know that the strength of the US system is in many ways founded in its history and its history is a very solid one.

PATRICIA KARVELAS:

Much has been made of the Obama Administration’s pivot to Asia, but Trump has already talked about high import tariffs on China. If the relations between the two countries become frosty, where does this leave Australia?

MINISTER:

Well, I think the best response I can give you there is the evidence from the Prime Minister’s conversation with President-elect Trump this morning. Not only did they agree on the vital importance of the alliance, but also on the United States’ continued strong presence in our region, that that presence has been an absolutely essential basis for the- what we have enjoyed over recent decades that has enabled growth, has enabled prosperity, and that is- in and of itself is a threshold conversation on day one between the Prime Minister and President-elect Trump, I think an important reinforcement of that history.

PATRICIA KARVELAS:

President-elect Trump has also suggested, though, withdrawing US troops from Asia. What does this mean for the rotation of 2,500 US troops through Darwin? Are you seeking an answer and clarity on that?

MINISTER:

Well, we haven’t begun discussions at this point, as you would know, except for the initial conversation between-

PATRICIA KARVELAS:

[Interrupts] Sure. But will you seek clarity on that, because that’s a very live issue, isn’t it?

MINISTER:

Yes, it is a very live issue and I’ve met with a senior Marine General just recently, in fact, on that very matter. I think the President has- the President-elect has indicated his strong commitment to expanding the US military. That’s very well-known, he’s been very clear about that. For example, he’s proposed a substantial investment in the United States Navy and that in and of itself is an indicator for us, particularly given our position here in the Indo-Pacific, of engagement we may be able to pursue further. That’s part of our inter-operability, part of our collaborative cooperation that we already have across Defence and technical agreements and across the ANZUS Treaty, obviously.

So I think the presence of US Marines here has had a very important impact regionally, a very important impact in relation to our strategic engagement with the US. We of course have welcomed it warmly and will continue to do so.

PATRICIA KARVELAS:

President-elect Trump has promised to defeat ISIS. How likely is it that Australia’s commitment in the Middle East will be extended? Do you have an analysis, a read on exactly what the implications might be for Australia?

MINISTER:

I have been at great pains to say that our commitment in the Middle East, in the campaign against Daesh, counter-Daesh campaign, is one which will always be determined by operational conditions at the time. We are heavily involved in the support of the Iraqi self-Defence Force and as part of the international coalition in the advance on Mosul now, and we know that Secretary Carter has indicated in the last week that that will also commence in relation to Raqqa.

I think that we need to be very clear headed and very careful in our commentary about the Middle East, because we have troops on the ground now. The US have troops on the ground now. And that commitment is ongoing. It will be reviewed from time to time, as it always would be by Government, but we’ve recently made an extension in that regard and you and I have spoken about that. We’ve recently extended the remit of our training operation at Taji in terms of training law enforcement there as well and in other locations. This is a very dynamic environment. I’ve said that the operation in relation to Mosul is a very, very complex one. It’s complex militarily, it’s complex strategically and politically. So whilst that is underway, I think both- for both the United States and for ourselves, we need to be circumspect in our commentary about that.

PATRICIA KARVELAS:

If you’re just tuning in to RN Drive my guest is the Defence Minister Marise Payne. If you’d like to contribute to the conversation our text line is 0418226576. There’s also Twitter and you can use the hashtag #RNDrive to talk to us.

Trump has also said he’d like to work with Putin to fight ISIS. Would Australia withdraw its commitments from the Middle East if the US and Russia coalition was formed? Does the role of Russia concern you here?

MINISTER:

I’m not going to engage in a discussion of hypotheticals like that. I think …

PATRICIA KARVELAS:

[Interrupts] I don’t know how hypothetical it is. He did say it during the campaign.

MINISTER:

I think it’s far too early, and as I have said, given the seriousness of the work in which we’re engaged right now I intend to be very circumspect in my comments about that.

PATRICIA KARVELAS:

Australia may be hesitant, but President-elect Trump could ask for further commitments in return for maintain the status quo in Asia, and we were talking about that commitment to Asia. Would Australia spend more money in that space if that’s what President-elect Trump wanted?

MINISTER:

Well if you- I think you referred fairly early in your conversation, Patricia, to the Defence White Paper. If you look at that publication from February of this year you will see a very strong and new emphasis for Defence on our international engagement, and most particularly in our region. That commitment is already there; we are growing and expanding our activities, and they include exercises and training, they include presence of Defence attaches and so on in a number of locations. We would always be willing to speak with the United States about the broad presence of both of our countries in Asia, and ensure that, if you like, we were not- ensure that we were constructive in that approach. The Defence White Paper sets it out quite clearly.

PATRICIA KARVELAS:

Kim Beazley, a former US Ambassador and obviously a former Defence Minister, someone who’s very respected in Australia particularly for his knowledge of this relationship, says we will be asked to spend more on Defence. Do you agree with that assessment?

MINISTER:

Well the Government’s commitment is a very significant one. We are already heading towards two per cent of GDP by 2021, a commitment which we’re able to meet earlier than we committed to in the 2013 election campaign. We have underway an acquisition program of very, very significant spending, particularly in terms of naval platforms, but as you would know that also includes our engagement in the Joint Strike Fighter program. We are, as a contributor in the international defence context, a very, very strong player in that field. I am confident that that level of engagement, that level of contribution, will be respected by the United States. And as we see the appointment of new Secretaries for Defence, new Secretaries of State and other people responsible in the national security area, I’m sure these conversations will be had. But I’m very happy to stand on Australia’s current strong position and engage in that conversation.

PATRICIA KARVELAS:

There are ongoing Defence projects on our plate: the Joint Strike Fighter, combat systems in the new submarines, in the new Air Warfare Destroyers. How will President-elect Trump’s nationalist approach to trade alter these projects?

MINISTER:

I think those projects are well underway. The depth of the Joint Strike Fighter program is a very extensive one, and with my colleague Christopher Pyne we have been working with the United States, certainly for the year before the last election and since, on my part, in the context of opportunities for Australian industry in that regard. The Defence Industry Minister has announced recently the allocation of the responsibility for Australia to the maintenance, repair and overhaul aspect of that. That’s an acknowledgement of what Australian industry is capable of, and I expect that to continue. We can absolutely stand on our record in this regard, whether it’s the work being done on the [indistinct] in Victoria, whether it’s pumps and hoses being done elsewhere in the country. Our contribution to the global supply chain is exceptional for a country of our size. We have the skills, we have the technology, and our Australian industry is at the forefront of this work and I’m immensely proud of them.

PATRICIA KARVELAS:

I was watching question time and I was interested in the Government’s, I suppose, rebuke of Bill Shorten as Opposition Leader for criticising Donald Trump, for calling some of his policies barking mad. The Opposition, particularly Tony Burke, retorted with all of the comments that other frontbenchers, including your colleague Christopher Pyne just the night before the US election, saying the Clinton administration would be better for Australia, and of course also Josh Frydenberg calling President-elect Trump, before he was President-elect, a drop-kick. Is it fair for the Government to be prosecuting this argument so hard against Bill Shorten, when actually members of the Cabinet have said similar things?

MINISTER:

Well I think if you were watching House of Representatives Question Time that means you weren’t watching the Senate Question Time, and I find that profoundly disappointing, Patricia. But I do know that when asked about this earlier today the Environment and Energy Minister did acknowledge that he thought in the time preceding the US election that the Prime Minister and the Foreign Minister had, I think to quote him, hit the right note and acknowledge that he should probably have done the same thing. That is a matter for my colleagues. But what is most important is that the leadership of this nation, the leadership of the Prime Minister, the Foreign Minister, has been very, very, very committed to the status of the relationship, absolutely respectful of the democratic process in the United States, as we should be. It seems to me that we have not been able to say the same of the Leader of the Opposition.

PATRICIA KARVELAS:

But is that really fair? I mean, isn’t it right, and isn’t Australia, as a middle power, as a friendly ally, entitled to critique things that our ally has to say, that the new leader may have to say? Isn’t it rather weak to do a crabwalk away from everything? I mean, the Prime Minister himself, Malcolm Turnbull, even critiqued Donald Trump when those sexual- those comments- that video was leaked and everyone in the whole world was outraged. I mean, why shouldn’t Bill Shorten say it like it is?

MINISTER:

Well I think, Patricia, when one takes on a position of leadership you take with that a certain set of responsibilities in how you engage in the national and international debate. Some people aspire to meet that standard, some people don’t.

PATRICIA KARVELAS:

Just on a few other issues before I let you go, on the fallout between Attorney-General Brandis and former Solicitor-General Justin Gleeson, the sticking point here was the direction from Senator Brandis guiding all legal advice through his office. This was due to be voted in the Senate today but was withdrawn by Senator Brandis. Gleeson basically lost his job over this, but now it’s all come to naught, it’s all being abandoned.

MINISTER:

Yes, and the Attorney-General has responded on that at some length and I have nothing further to add.

PATRICIA KARVELAS:

You don’t think it was a waste of time? The Government lost a bit of political skin there, didn’t it?

MINISTER:

Nothing further to add, Patricia.

PATRICIA KARVELAS:

Alright. Just finally, the directions hearing for the High Court cases of Rod Culleton and Bob Day will be heard on November 21. How confident are you that these cases can be cleared before the end of the parliamentary year so that the Senate is robust and is able to deal with your legislation?

MINISTER:

Trust me, the Senate is quite robust most days of most weeks in most months of any year. But in terms of the proceedings of the High Court, that is of course a matter for the court.

PATRICIA KARVELAS:

Marise Payne, thank you so much for joining us.

MINISTER:

Thanks Patricia.