Press Conference – Minister for Defence, Senator Marise Payne – Australian Defence Force Academy, Canberra

Good morning ladies and gentlemen and thank you all very much for being here this morning. Let me first acknowledge the traditional owners of the land on which we meet here in Canberra and pay my respects to their elders past and present.

Well it’s a great opportunity for me to be here at the University of New South Wales in Canberra this morning to announce a very, very important and exciting collaboration between Defence and the university. As we indicated in the 2016 Defence White Paper, we are strengthening our space surveillance and situational awareness capabilities and to achieve this we’re collaborating with university and industry partners to foster and grow Australia’s space engineering capability.

We will continue to work closely also with our international allies to participate in and contribute to collaborative research in the space domain. Defence has contributed to the development and launch of a number of satellites, including a number in collaboration with international partners over the years. What we are now doing is planning the launch of our own miniature satellites through rideshare arrangements with our allies in the Defence community. These miniature satellites are known as CubeSats, which as I hope you have seen can be joined together and configured to create a fit for purpose satellite. What they do is provide us with a relatively low-cost means to test capabilities that support our space surveillance and situational awareness activities. Because they’re small in size, they’re ideal for small, lightweight payloads and they can be configured to suit our research needs.

So it’s at this point, and with great pleasure, that I announce a very important collaboration between the Defence Science and Technology Group and UNSW Canberra that will be the launch of a CubeSat under the research program which is called Buccaneer. The Buccaneer Program will see two satellites launched, with the first through a rideshare arrangement with theUnited States scheduled for early 2017 and the second expected to be launched in 2018. Defence scientists and UNSW Canberra space engineers have been working closely together to build and to test the Buccaneer satellite which is on display here today.

UNSW Canberra is providing niche expertise in space engineering as well, having funded the first Buccaneer spacecraft, “bus”. They’ve also been responsible for the certification checks on the integrated spacecraft. The payload being integrated into the satellite is Defence designed, developed and manufactured. The payload is designed to conduct calibration activities for the Jindalee Operational Radar Network, better known as JORN.

The first Buccaneer mission is a risk mitigation to test the deployment of the HF antennae, as this is a completely new design for a small satellite and I just had the opportunity to ask a few questions about how that actually works, and I am sure that our experts here would be happy to answer those if anyone has any inquiries. The university will be conducting experiments during the first mission to better understand how atmospheric drag affects the Buccaneer satellite. Spacecraft flight control software and ground stations have also been developed to support this and future small satellite missions. These research programs are to conduct GPS, space situation awareness and calibration experiments. That is their purpose. I am very pleased to have the chance to be here today and to have spent some time with the experts, the very serious experts, talking about the capability and what we are embarking upon here. I’d like now to invite Professor Michael Frater, the rector of the UNSW in Canberra and then Dr Janis Cocking on behalf of the Chief Defence Scientist and DSTG to say a few words. Michael.

PROFESSOR FRATER:

Thank you, Minister.

Welcome everybody to UNSW Canberra at the Australian Defence Force Academy and can I pay my respects to the traditional custodians of the land on which we meet and my respects to their elders past and present. Minister and acting-CDF, welcome to UNSW Canberra. It’s a very happy day today because we’re launching a really important partnership I think for the future of space in Australia. The global space sector is currently undergoing transformation. Traditional actors such as wealthy nations and major international aerospace primes and traditional approaches, such as large and expensive satellites are now able to do some things but they’re no longer the be all and end all of space capability. From what we’re seeing around the world and particularly in the Asia Pacific region, these new players such as Australia, are doing more and more and these Buccaneer missions are the first example of what we’re doing in the partnership between UNSW and Defence.

We have a long history of space activity in Australia. But it’s a long time since there’s been a program of missions like this from Australian players. There’s a great environment at this time because of the decreasing cost of space access and the increasing capability of small satellites and it’s only now that we can launch a satellite the size of a CubeSat and say that it is doing something real. At UNSW Canberra we’re investing $10 million over a five year period to build a space capability to take advantage of this improvement. We’re investing in a team of highly skilled scientists and engineers with enormous accumulated international experience and what we have done in this program is to play our part in reversing the brain drain. Under the leadership of our chair of space engineering, Professor Russell Boyce, we’ve implemented a space program called UNSW Canberra Space that takes advantage of the miniaturisation and cost effectiveness of space access. What we’re aiming to do is to conduct world class space education to meet the needs of national and international significance.

Our people are critical to this investment and we’re very proud to be partnered with DST Group in the Buccaneer missions. We look forward to the journey ahead and engaging with Defence and other organisations in Australia and around the world to provide a self-reliance for Australia in space that we’ve never had before. Thank you. I’ll hand over to Janis.

DR COCKING:

Thank you. My thanks to the Minister for Defence for coming this morning. I’d also like to acknowledge the traditional owners on whose land we meet and pay my respects to their elders past and present.

The Minister’s announcement today reflects that Defence, through Defence Science and Technology Group, is positioning itself to be at the forefront of developing space research capabilities in Australia. These satellite programs are the first step towards reaching this aim and they’re also a first step in enabling the growth of niche expertise in space research. I must make the point that we can only do this in partnerships, so the University of New South Wales in Canberra is a key partner for us. The underpinning research that they’ve built up over several years now has been a key for us to be able to fully exploit and tap into Australia’s talent pool and that’s going to be realised in the mission. We have international relationships also that are very strong and that’s enabling us, really, to be able to – call it piggyback – contribute this GPS payload to a multinational effort that will allow us to undertake these space situational awareness experiments. The Buccaneer mission builds on a strong relationship with both our international partners, especially in the USA, the UK, Canada and New Zealand and theUniversity of New South Wales in Canberra, which enables us to conduct these calibration experiments and the University ofNew South Wales to conduct its atmospheric characterisation experiments. It’s an exciting time for Defence Science and Technology as we move to increase our research capability in this area and to just reuse an old quote and perhaps reshape it slightly, it may be one small step for Defence, but it’s a big step for Australia in space science. Thank you Minister, for coming today to make the announcement. Perhaps I’ll hand it back to you.

MINISTER PAYNE:

Thank you very much. Thank you very much Janis and Michael. I’ll just finish by saying I met about a fortnight ago with the five Chief Defence Scientists from the Five Eyes, from Australia obviously Dr Alex Zelinsky, from the UK, New Zealand, from Canada and the United States at The Technical Cooperation Program meeting which was held in Sydney this year. If I had not been coming here this morning, that in itself would have been a very important reinforcement of the importance of working within our alliance structures, working within the existing relationships - the existing relationships we have in terms of scientific development.

Janis is quite right, this niche expertise that can be brought to an exercise like this from Australia is absolutely invaluable. I also wanted to reinforce for the record the importance of the reverse brain drain, bringing some of our experts back from overseas. I'm sure that we can twist his arm to talk to any of the media if I am very persuasive, which is a great example of what expertise Australia has, how well recognised it is internationally and that we are able to persuade those experts to come back to contribute to our activities here. Thanks ladies and gentlemen.

JOURNALIST:

Minister, are you or one of other experts [indistinct] ... able to give us an idea of what this will do in practical terms? Like you mentioned the Jindalee system - in what way will it enhance the Jindalee system? Is there any way to quantify this, and can ...

MINISTER PAYNE: 

Sure.

JOURNALIST:          

... awareness, I presume that means keeping satellites apart, avoiding collisions, something like that.

MINISTER PAYNE: 

And seeing what else is out there as well.

DR NICK STACY (DST GROUP):

The Jindalee Radar transmits a radar signal. This is receiving that signal with that large antenna at its base, and so just [indistinct] one way measurement of the radar signal that will contribute to the calibration of that system.

JOURNALIST:

So that it can see further, or more accurately, or more sharply?

DR STACY:

So this is really [indistinct] a research and development effort to understand some advanced ways of trying to calibrate a system. We've quantified how much the performance will change the ... hasn't really been determined yet, but [indistinct] ...

MINISTER PAYNE:

So you calibrate it to maximise its effectiveness ...

DR STACY:

Yes, that's right.

MINISTER PAYNE:

So we are actually testing this new high frequency radar for the first time in this particular exercise, we're testing that for the first time.

JOURNALIST:

Do you have to say any more about what contribution we will make through this technology to the Five Eyes network?

MINISTER PAYNE: 

No.

JOURNALIST:

You sure? [Laughter]

JOURNALIST:          

I think Michael mentioned self-reliance. Can you just talk a little about why that is important at this stage in Australia's history - why do we need to become more self-reliant on ...

MINISTER PAYNE: 

Well we talked about it in the White Paper, to a degree, and we also identified the importance of the Next Generation Technologies Fund and the Industry Policy Statement and the Defence Innovation Hub. That is Australia identifying, as we must do, the rapid advance of technology in all of our work, but particularly in a space sense.

Having a capacity to be part of that process, to have some independent position of our own I think is useful, and then to feed back into the Five Eyes. I'm not suggesting for a moment that we're about to launch the equivalent of a NASA program - although there may be some people with ambition over here in the corner of the room - but that said, I think the expertise we have in space engineering to contribute within that process is important to maintaining Australia's capacity to know what is going on, our awareness, our contribution to the process is vital. Otherwise we would risk being left behind, and nobody wants to do that, which is why we identified it in the White Paper.

JOURNALIST:          

At the moment, are we overly reliant on our Five Eyes partners for monitoring this part of the world?

MINISTER PAYNE: 

No, I think it's a good partnership. I think it's a constructive partnership. We make contributions, all of the participants make contributions at different levels and in different niches, and again that goes back to the importance of what Janis says. Our space engineers have developed particular talents, particular skills, and this was a very good example of where we're able to take that. But in working with the Five Eyes we make contributions appropriate to our capacity, our expertise and our experience. Having people on the team who have had international experience who bring that back to Australia I think is a very useful part of that.

JOURNALIST:          

To a very layperson, this seems insanely small ... well it is insanely small, but how does someone here even quantify what it can do by comparison with what we've seen in the past?

MINISTER PAYNE: 

Your bus-sized satellite versus your cube-sized satellite?

JOURNALIST:          

Exactly, exactly, that sort of thing.

DR DAVID LINGARD (DST GROUP):

So systems like this that are collecting imagery, with a system like that you might be able to achieve a five metre resolution on the ground with your image pixels, whereas with much larger systems you can get down to well under a metre, or under 50 centimetre resolution. So as you get to those really big systems, they're able to point more accurately and achieve better resolution images - just using imagery collection as an example. But of course these systems are a lot cheaper and so you're able to launch constellations of these and have excellent resolution in time because they're coming over all the time throughout the day. Whereas the big systems, they've - you can't have as many of those, just by definition because they're very complex and expensive.

JOURNALIST:          

We were talking about space situational awareness. What other satellites are out there and what else is out there? We were also talking about looking at what's on the ground, right, so particularly when you talk about calibrating JORN, you're cross-referencing what JORN is seeing over the horizon and ...

DR  LINGARD:

Well space situational awareness, for example, we can use these as targets, our satellites, because we know exactly where they are. So there's a number of emerging systems in Australia - laser based, telescopes, radars for tracking space debris. Well, we can use these as targets that we know exactly where they are and so we can test out the performance of our ground-based systems for tracking space debris and that's space situational awareness. So these systems can make a great contribution to space situational awareness just by being well-understood targets.

JOURNALIST:          

There's been a growing concern in the international community about the amount of space debris up there and then the number of space vehicles. Where does your situational awareness issue and proliferation of galaxies or constellations, I think it was, holding small satellites like this fit in with that? Is it adding to the clutter or…

DR  LINGARD:

We've been very careful to make - so we've done modelling for - NASA did some modelling for us and that's shown that these satellites, they'll fall out of orbit and burn up completely in Earth's atmosphere well within ten years and the international guideline is that they - the satellites should burn up in the Earth's atmosphere or de-orbit within 25 years after their end of mission. So we're going to be well within ten years, so we're easily satisfying the international guidelines.

JOURNALIST:          

And how long is the expedition?

DR  LINGARD:

We're hoping it's going to be operational for at least a year, you know, CubeSats tend to use cheaper technology, they tend to be cheaper and more disposable so they don't use radiation hardened electronics so that does reduce their operational lifespan so the idea is if they fail, you can easily put up another CubeSat so we're hoping that it will at least get a year of operation and it will fall out of orbit within five - five to eight years, well within ten years.

JOURNALIST:          

Roughly how much do they cost then compared to the other larger satellites?

DR  LINGARD:

I think we've spent, thus far we've spent a quarter of a million dollars and we'll probably spend another, roughly about another $800,000 in the next couple of years. But you can buy an other spacecraft bus without the payload for well under half a million dollars from US companies, for example.

JOURNALIST:          

[Inaudible question].

DR  LINGARD:

When you're looking at the cost of satellites used or the cost of ownership, it's not just the satellite itself, a lot of it's spent on weather stations and the people to look after it, so it's stuff that never leaves the ground. In round terms, this sort of mission has to $1 million, large satellites can cost hundreds of millions of dollars or billions of dollars and so this isn't just a small step, the point of this is it is a completely different approach for the use of space which is something which - where Australia can play and should play, whereas with the larger satellites, it's arguably something we should leave to others and if I can just follow up on one of the earlier questions, if you look at this in terms of what Australia - how should Australia go about this, should we have a space industry, one of the things that I think you can argue is that in space and its high security, you get a collision between economic security and national security which gives the Government a special role.

The other thing about both of those areas is the Government is a very real customer, and government can use its role as a customer, as in this example, to actually drive innovation in Australia and that's where the real opportunity of this is. That you know, yes this is a specific mission, but if all the things that flow on from that, it's the fact that we've used this as an opportunity to reverse the brain drain, that means we had had a capability for new missions. If we hadn't have done this, we wouldn't have had that capability that could never be future missions.

JOURNALIST:

So this is the first time Australia has - will be launching a…

MINISTER PAYNE:

In a long time, in a long time. Decades, yeah.

JOURNALIST:

How will they be launched, sorry?

MINISTER PAYNE:

Using a ride share arrangement with NASA.

JOURNALIST:

Minister, if we could just ask you on the topic of the war in Iraq what role will Australian Special Forces be playing on the impending advance upon Mosul?

MINISTER PAYNE: 

Andrew, thank you. The Prime Minister of Iraq, Prime Minister al-Abadi has made an announcement this morning of course in relation to the advance on Mosul. The role of the Advise and Assist Group will continue to be as it has been for some months, which is to support the special operations forces, the first special operations forces group in Iraq, as that advance is made. The path towards Mosul is a long one and the action there is also projected to be one that takes a considerable period of time. It’s not a single process. The international coalition working with the Iraqi Government is also very conscious of the need to protect the civilian community and has been communicating with them in order to do so for some period of time in advance of this mission today and we will work both with the soldiers that have been trained, through the Building Partner Capacity group at Taji and I think at least one of you may have visited them recently. All three of you here may have visited them recently and as I said, the Advise and Assist Group will continue in its role.

JOURNALIST:

So how close to the frontline?

MINISTER PAYNE: 

We're not going to talk about any of the operational details.

JOURNALIST:

Will our SOTG have to move at all from their current location?

MINISTER PAYNE:

I'm not going to talk about any of those details.

JOURNALIST:

And do you think it's possible to recapture the city? It's got about 1 million people in it…

MINISTER PAYNE:

Yes.

JOURNALIST: 

… apparently, without massive civilian casualty?

MINISTER PAYNE: 

I don't think my conjecture on the rates of casualties or otherwise would be helpful at the point, Brendan. What I would say is that the Iraqi Government, the Iraqi Defence Force, the Iraqi Special Operations Forces, and the international coalition have been working for some months now to endeavour to minimise the impact in relation to the taking of Mosul, they have been working closely with each other in partnership and ensuring that the messages have been strongly, forcefully conveyed to the communities in Mosul.

It is a large city though. It has complex internal politics as well. I don't think that makes the circumstances any easier, but as the advances are made, it is a path that the Iraqi Government has been determined to engage upon for some time and we've been working very closely with them. You will know that we have senior Australians who are embedded in the process, they're part of that and the Air Task Group. The Air Task Group will continue its work in support and I will wait on a daily basis to hear updates.

JOURNALIST:

What's your current thinking, Minister, on the knock on effects of … if Mosul is recaptured, those IS fighters who aren't either killed or captured will need to go somewhere. As you say, there's complex internal politics that will need to be resolved within Mosul. Can you just talk us through what your thoughts are on any knock on effects?

MINISTER PAYNE:

The international coalition, its members, and other nations are acutely attuned to what may flow from taking Mosul. There will be members of the foreign fighters groups who will inevitably wish to head elsewhere. We're alert to that as a Government. Regionally, I know I can say the same, as you know, the Singaporean Defence Minister was in Australia last week and we discussed this. I discussed it with my Malaysian colleague recently and we're also in conversation with other governments in the region.

The ministers group of the international coalition is meeting in Paris in ten days time and that is also very high on our list of subjects for discussion. Each country takes a different approach, as they must according to their own rules, their own laws, but in Australia we of course have had a very strong view in relation to those who have gone to the fighting areas and the complete rejection of those activities.

As I said when I commenced these remarks after Andrew's question, I do think that the Mosul operation will take some time; I may be proved to be wrong but I do think it will take some time. There is much to play out and I said I don't want to canvas any operational issues.

JOURNALIST:

And is our SOTG contribution similar to past contributions with offensives against Fallujah?

MINISTER PAYNE:

Essentially, yes.

JOURNALIST:

Once, I mean, if Mosul is retaken, then will our substantial role in Iraq start to wind down after that? Or do you see a similar contribution beyond that? I mean, if it can be done within a matter of a few months, do you think we can wind down? Sorry, excuse me.

MINISTER PAYNE:

These are matters which Government will consider in due course as we see it play out. Now, I think if you take the experiences that we've seen through Ramadi, through Fallujah, through Qayyarah West and other locations where the retaking has been achieved, there's been varying approaches to the follow on. We've also engaged in that by broadening the remit of the Building Partner Capacity group and the taskforce there. We've enlarged there, as you know, to train local and federal police, for example, in the post-conflict security context. That has been a very useful contribution. We've also been able to… enable them to move further away from Taji itself.

So, that is part of the follow up. Similarly, that will have to happen in Mosul to some degree and then

governments and the international coalition will consider the future. And we'll ing doing that in consultation and in discussion with the Iraqi Government.

JOURNALIST:

In neighbouring Syria, how concerned are you of the deteriorating relationship between the US and Russia?

MINISTER PAYNE:

Oh, well, I think both the Foreign Minister and the Prime Minister have been quite clear about that. It is not at all helpful to any efforts to address the conflict situation. The humanitarian impact is significant and it is profoundly disappointing that it has come to this point. In terms of where it goes from now, obviously I think both Secretary Johnson and Secretary of State Kerry convened a meeting of … this Syria like minded group just this last weekend and they are continuing to discuss that.

JOURNALIST:

It's been a few weeks now, Minister, since the reports that the coalition air strikes hit a Syrian soldier by mistake. We haven't heard much about it since then. Can you give us any update?

MINISTER PAYNE:

I am still awaiting the report from the international coalition. We have an Australian officer engaged in that inquiry process and as soon as the report is able to be made public, then I will be doing that.

JOURNALIST:

On a related matter, we've seen some concerns raised recently about the use of departmental cards. Are you assured that the processes for credit cards and payment cards are adequate?

MINISTER PAYNE:

Well, I was very concerned, of course, when the ANAO Report was made available but the Department did take a comprehensive approach to changing some of the card management issues. It's an organisation of approximately 90,000 people, it's an organisation that's spread from one side of the country to the other and then more broadly. So making sure that we are properly resourced and that we're able to support our deployed troops with what they need when they need it is an aspect of our operations. But that's no excuse for not having the tightest possible internal arrangements in relation to accounting and in relation to card management. So, with the work of the CFO and the appropriate senior officials in the audit area, we have addressed that. I'll be keeping a very close eye on that into the future and seeking regular reports.

If we're good, I need to get back to Parliament. Thank you, thank you all, and thank you very much and congratulations on the announcement this morning.