Minister for Defence - ABC Radio National Drive interview with Patricia Karvelas

ABC Radio National Drive interview with Patricia Karvelas

Thursday, 25 February 2016

Subjects: 2016 Defence White Paper

PATRICIA KARVELAS:

More powerful, more commanding, more resilient, more responsive: they’re the words of Prime Minister Malcolm Turnbull, introducing the Defence White Paper today. It commits an extra $30 billion to the Defence budget for an eye-watering total of $450 billion over the next decade. Overseeing it all is the Defence Minister, Marise Payne, welcome back to RN Drive.

MINISTER PAYNE:

Hello, Patricia.

PATRICIA KARVELAS:

Why do we need to spend $450 billion on Defence over the next decade?

MINISTER PAYNE:

Well, I think the Prime Minister articulated this particularly well today. If we don’t have the strength to protect our nation and to protect our way of life, particularly as a trading nation, an island nation, at this point on the globe, then we actually don’t have anything. Because all of the things we hold dear need to be covered by that protection.

PATRICIA KARVELAS:

So, by 2025, the Defence budget will be $59 billion a year, no matter what happens over the next decade, even if belts need to be tightened, does Defence spending – will it be preserved and the Government will not look at cutting it over that period? The cuts will always come from somewhere else, given we have this budgetary issue?

MINISTER PAYNE:

I think what you’ve seen today and what the Australian public has seen today is the manifestation of a commitment which we made before the 2013 election, firstly to return Defence spending to two per cent of GDP within the decade of our election and we will do that.

What you have also seen us produce for the first time in Australia’s history is a properly funded, externally cost-assured, Integrated Investment Program for Defence. So, as you go through that particular document, which is one of the ancillary documents to the White Paper, capability by capability, timeframe by timeframe, then you will see a very, very considered, very methodical and careful analysis of the way those funds are to be spent.

We’ve based that on a Force Structure Review which took place in 2014 over 11 months. We are also in the process of implementing a First Principles Review in Defence which is changing the way we do business and making it a much more transparent and better able to track the process, overwhelmingly. All of those things are part of this very considerable White Paper and the Integrated Investment Program and Industry Policy Statement we’ve put down today. I think people really can see what we’ve been prepared to make public and how transparent we are prepared to be.

PATRICIA KARVELAS:

If you’re just tuning in to RN Drive, my very special guest is Defence Minister Marise Payne. Our number here is 0418 226 576. I’m sure you’ve had a couple of hours now if you’re in the, you know, you’ve been consuming some news to digest the White Paper; I wonder what you make of it. You can also tweet us at RN Drive.

Minister, Defence spending will reach two per cent of GDP by 2021, three years ahead of the previous target. What’s the urgency behind that, because it involves a significant ramping up of spending each year to achieve that?

MINISTER PAYNE:

Patricia, there are a couple of factors which we’ve had to take into account. One of those is the underinvestment which the previous government had left Defence with. That was indicated by a 2009 White Paper, which basically had its funding stripped out of it. I think the first action of stripping occurred nine or 12 days after that White Paper was released in 2009. And then in 2013; a completely unfunded White Paper was produced. So that has left Defence with something in excess of $18 billion having been removed from it over that previous period.

What we have endeavoured to address is those gaps, but also to combine not just the capability and acquisition processes that you would normally see in this, but Defence spending across a much broader base. So we have combined, for example, what we intend to do in relation to a state, which has also suffered from neglect, and what we need to do in relation to information and communication technology, which is, sadly, very much lagging behind current expectations in business or any other arena of life. Those sorts of things are part of this Integrated Investment Program and are a very solid part of the program we have built going forward.

PATRICIA KARVELAS:

And you’ve committed to 12 submarines – submarines are really the big discussion often in Defence…

MINISTER PAYNE:

Big in so many ways.

PATRICIA KARVELAS:

Oh, yes, physically too. Was it ever going to be eight? Because there had been speculation about that.

MINISTER PAYNE:

So, we made a commitment to 12 submarines and the White Paper has confirmed that. I think it’s very important to understand that the process we’re in, in terms of the Competitive Evaluation Process which was launched last year, is still part-way through. So, although submissions were received at the end of November 2015, that evaluation process is underway. Government is—

PATRICIA KARVELAS

—Of course you haven’t been able to reveal today whether those subs will be built in Adelaide. That’s a huge political question that you still need to answer.

MINISTER PAYNE:

It is a significant question – of course it is – and we absolutely understand that. But when the Competitive Evaluation Process was put together – so that we could ensure that we were making our best possible decisions around the costs that this was going to present to the Australian economy – each participant was asked to respond in terms of three different approaches to a build: international; what we are calling hybrid; and an Australian domestic build. That evaluation process is underway, it is covered in probity terms by, I think, the probity officer so to speak is the Australian Government Solicitor, we have an expert advisory panel led by international experts and local probity and advisory individuals. That is a really important part of this process.

I know that if you’re the Labor Party at the moment, you just want to say: “To hell with the process and to hell with the reality of what you really need to do to make an acquisition of this seriousness – why don’t you just go for the easy political fix?” Well unfortunately, we are much more responsible than that and we intend to make sure that we proceed with the Competitive Evaluation Process and take the best advice from the Department of Defence.

PATRICIA KARVELAS:

The 12 submarines will cost a total of $50 billion to build; if the rule of thumb is that sustainment costs are two thirds of the total cost, doesn’t that actually mean they’ll cost $150 billion over their lifetime and that’s about $12.5 billion each?

MINISTER PAYNE:

So, I heard that number being thrown around today and in fact it was dealt with at our press conference earlier. I think that the aspect of the sustainment costs that we’re talking about here is actually being looked at as part of the Competitive Evaluation Process and nobody seriously has the crystal ball that enables them to say that that’s the amount it’s going to be. The Chief of the Defence Force dealt with that today.

PATRICIA KARVELAS:

You’re also building up personnel, returning Australia’s permanent force to its largest size since 1993, I understand. Does the White Paper guarantee you’ll have enough hands on deck for all the new capability that you’re buying in this process?

MINISTER PAYNE:

In personnel terms, the White Paper makes a couple of very clear statements. First of all, we will be recruiting around 2,500 new members of the ADF across the three services and we will also be re-purposing, if you like – for want of a less bureaucratic word – re-purposing about 2,300 jobs already within the ADF. So there are things that we have members of the ADF doing that can be done more effectively and have changed over time, but really the process hasn’t kept up with that. We think that we can use those skilled ADF staff more effectively in different jobs, in different areas and that 2,300 people is what that’s all about.

PATRICIA KARVELAS:

In launching the White Paper the Prime Minister said we welcome China’s rise, but the Paper says Australia is concerned about conflict in Asia, particularly the South China Sea. So, we’re building up our security forces and we’re ready to exert more power in the region. You’ve sent someone over to China to talk about this, to present this. How is it being received?

MINISTER PAYNE:

Well, in fact, our Deputy Secretary visited a number of locations in the region to brief our very important regional colleagues on the White Paper. Not just China of course, but Japan and Indonesia. We’ve consulted with other near neighbours. I’m meeting relatively soon with a number of our regional colleagues for this very purpose – and I think that’s an important part of building those relationships and ensuring that we’re in a good position to work together—

PATRICIA KARVELAS:



—But given this language around China…

MINISTER PAYNE:

—to pursue to strategic challenges when we need to.

PATRICIA KARVELAS:

But given this language around China, that this language, that we’re ready to exert more power in the region; how is it being received?

MINISTER PAYNE:

Well, as I understand it was received entirely appropriately, but what is—

PATRICIA KARVELAS

—what does “entirely appropriately” mean?

MINISTER PAYNE:

Well, I think that’s a diplomatic term isn’t it?

PATRICIA KARVELAS:

Yes, it is, that’s why I’m trying to find out what it means underneath the words.

MINISTER PAYNE:

I work in Defence, not Foreign Affairs.

PATRICIA KARVELAS:

Well, okay. Let me ask this question then: in Tokyo tomorrow, Tony Abbott will call for joint US-Australian Freedom of Navigation exercises in the South China Sea. Will you take Tony Abbott’s advice, the former Prime Minister’s advice?

MINISTER PAYNE:

Well, we’ve been very clear in relation to our position on this. Both myself, the Prime Minister, the Foreign Minister and in fact, the Foreign Minister was using entirely appropriate diplomatic language when she was in China just last week and discussing this with her counterpart. We have made it very clear that we are concerned about the activities of claimants over particular elements in the South China Sea and that goes for all participants in that process, not just China, but there are others indeed. We are very concerned about those activities; we want to see those activities cease. As we articulate that argument, we also indicate that we are the strongest possible supporters of Freedom of Navigation, Freedom of Overflight, in accordance with international law.

PATRICIA KARVELAS:

But why not a joint US-Australia Freedom of Navigation exercise?

MINISTER PAYNE:

Well, as I’ve said consistently and as the Prime Minister repeated today, we’re actually not going to engage in a public canvassing of the possible future, of any possible future operations, of the ADF of that nature and frankly, nor should we.

PATRICIA KARVELAS:

Minister, before I let you go, do you have absolute confidence that the Parliamentary Joint Committee on Intelligence and Security will be sufficiently bipartisan with Andrew Nikolic as its new Chair?

MINISTER PAYNE:

I must say, I have seen some pretty disappointing activities in politics in my time, but to say of a former long-standing serving member of the ADF, to engage in some cheap political effort to traduce his reputation before he takes up a particularly important role and to call into question his professionalism; that’s pretty disappointing. Andrew Nikolic served—

PATRICIA KARVELAS:

—Is he just as—

MINISTER PAYNE:

—Andrew Nikolic served this country, left I think, the military, if I’m not mistaken, as a Brigadier who had seen service in the Middle East and a number of other areas. He is a strong and extraordinarily hard-working Member of the House of Representatives and he will do a very good job.

PATRICIA KARVELAS:

And he’ll do the same kind of job that Dan Tehan did, because he was seen as very diplomatic.

MINISTER PAYNE:

We’ll, we’re all very different people. I don’t think Dan Tehan and Andrew Nikolic, Marise Payne and Malcolm Turnbull all do the same job in any context. But, we all do very professional jobs in this place. We try very hard to respect the positions that we hold. Andrew Nikolic is no exception to that and I certainly don’t expect to see any exception to that and I think this attack on him is extremely disappointing.

PATRICIA KARVELAS:

Minister, many thanks for your time.

MINISTER PAYNE:

Thanks, Patricia.

ENDS