Minister for Defence - Transcript - ABC Radio National Drive with Patricia Karvelas

Thursday 19 November 2015

Subjects: Iraq and Syria, Port of Darwin, Kidman property

PATRICIA KARVELAS:    

It's six past six on RN Drive. As French police raided the home of Islamic State suspects in Paris, world leaders have renewed their focus on resolving the crisis in Syria. Prime Minister Malcolm Turnbull today labelled the Syrian President Bashar al-Assad a murderous tyrant. But at the same time, he says the West's approach to Syria and IS must be about pragmatism and compromise. Marise Payne is the Minister for Defence, and joins me now. Minister, welcome back to RN Drive.

MINISTER PAYNE:           

Great to be here, Patricia.

PATRICIA KARVELAS:    

Now, Government backbencher Dan Tehan is the Chair of Parliament's Intelligence and Security Committee. He says Assad needs to go. He also says a political solution could see the end of the Assad rule within six months. Do you agree with that assessment? Is a six month timeframe really achievable?

MINISTER PAYNE:

I think that these are extraordinarily complex issues and personally I would not put a timeframe on the process of that nature. I think the Prime Minister has in fact indicted that very clearly that those who are gathered, for example, in Turkey just this last week, recognise the complexity and the detail with which they are dealing, both in military and political terms. And that it has to be done very, very carefully. These are cautious steps we take - not arbitrary timeframes and not arbitrary decisions for that matter either.

PATRICIA KARVELAS:    

So when the Prime Minister speaks of pragmatism and compromise, is he talking about a transition of power in Syria, or a power-sharing arrangement such as a unity government?

MINISTER PAYNE:           

I think that there is a lot of water to go under the bridge before we define it in those terms. And both the Foreign Minister and the Prime Minister have been very careful to say that as we pursue these issues we must pursue them in consultation with the governments of the region. And the governments of the region need to also be able to own the outcomes. I think it would be very short-sighted to contemplate that the western world broadly, and players such Australia, such as the United States, could unilaterally impose the solutions that we think are right and safe from our respective ivory towers; we think are right without recognising the need for that engagement locally.

PATRICIA KARVELAS:    

Okay. So if a transition of power is on the table at some stage what conditions would the Australian Government want? For example, would Assad need to go within 12 months? Would he need to relinquish control of Syria's military? What are those considerations that Australia is placing?

MINISTER PAYNE:           

And, again, that is a very long way down the road ahead of us, Patricia. These- the events of recent days are obviously focusing a great deal of attention on the domestic challenges that countries across the world are facing. And we know that we're not just talking about France, but in recent times, Turkey itself, Lebanon, Egypt, and the impact on the Russians of the events in Egypt. So to try and build a road map from the results of the discussions that have been held recently, and before the Prime Minister and the Foreign Minister even have a chance to be back here and starting briefing our members of Cabinet and the National Security Committee is, I think, really putting the cart before the horse.

PATRICIA KARVELAS:    

But yet we're seeing significant numbers of backbenchers now raise the idea of boots on the ground in Syria, wanting to create timeframes. There's been many voices, including the ex-Prime Minister. There is significant pressure, isn't there, in the Coalition now, for the executive, for you and the Prime Minister and the Foreign Minister, to change the position, the position on Syria?

MINISTER PAYNE:           

Well, I'm certainly not averse to having a discussion, and that's an important part of the approach that Prime Minister Turnbull is taking. But I think I would like to have recourse to his remarks just of yesterday I think, where he made it quite clear that the view of all of the leaders of every country who was participating in the G20 in Turkey - every single one of them - is at the presence of foreign armies in that theatre, as he put it, now would be counterproductive. I really think that that sort of feedback and that sort of perspective is something that we have to bear in mind.

PATRICIA KARVELAS:    

But still we see now the US President under intense scrutiny and really being questioned very much on the US's strategy, which we're signing up to. It's a stop gap measure, isn't it? It's a containment strategy. Ultimately, you cannot beat IS with this strategy.

MINISTER PAYNE:           

To try and discuss this in isolation from other activities that are being pursued of the discussion of the political strategy, of the military engagement, of what the community locally in that part of that world actually thinks themselves - none of these things can be dealt with in isolation. And I think Australia needs to be particularly about- and the United States, and the UK, and so the list goes on, about the approach we take to this. We need to be consultative, we need to be working with our Coalition partners, we need to be acknowledging that we already making the second largest military contribution in this theatre at the moment, behind the United States. And that contribution is not an insignificant one, and I would very much like to reiterate that as well.

PATRICIA KARVELAS:    

On RN Drive, my guest is the Defence Minister, Marise Payne. What do you make of the Government's current stance in this conflict? 04 18 226 576 that's our number. You can also tweet us @rndrive.             Minister, Russia has shifted its position now that it's declared that IS was behind the plane explosion. It appears now to be open to a change in stance on the Assad regime. What is Australia's view in terms of this new re-alignment, this alignment with the US and Russia - what are the risks inherent in that?

MINISTER PAYNE:           

Well, we have a working relationship with Russia and the Foreign Minister has made that quite clear. And both the Prime Minister and President Putin have had a very recent discussion about Syria, particularly given the events of recent times in Paris. We continue- have our own concerns in relation to the involvement of, or the approach that Russia has taken in relation to the downing of MH17 of course. But what we have said quite clearly is that those who are contributing in this process, and that includes the Russians, we want to be able to work together in a constructive way. We said right from the very beginning when the Russians indicated that they were going to participate in that process that we believed and continue to believe that their target must be Daesh. We have been very consistent in that regard. We have worked in consultation with the Americans to make sure that in any engagement, air engagements over Syrian and Iraqi airspace, that the most safe approaches are taken by all of the parties. That has been led largely in part by the United States in consultation with Russia, but that is also about the protection of our own forces.

PATRICIA KARVELAS:    

Will we send the Australian frigate HMAS Melbourne to support a French aircraft carrier in the Middle East? I know that's a request that's being considered by the Government. Have we decided to send it?

MINISTER PAYNE:           

That decision has not been made. The frigate that we currently have in the Gulf is of course on its 60th rotation, not the ship itself but the Australian presence is on its 60th rotation. So we have an ongoing commitment in that area which we need to balance in conjunction with our own requirements. We continue to talk to the French about how we may be able to help them in that regard, and I discussed this matter with the Chief of Navy and with the Chief of the Defence Force earlier this week when it was raised again with the Prime Minister. So we have not made a decision to join with the French- with the Charles de Gaulle at this stage.

PATRICIA KARVELAS:    

Okay. Are there alternatives we're considering then, if we're- I'm getting the indication from you that we are unlikely to send HMAS Melbourne or another frigate. Given that, are there other options on the table that we are not in discussions with the French over?

MINISTER PAYNE:

We have some limited ability to extend our contribution at this time because of what we are already doing. We may pursue an opportunity to conduct, perhaps, an alternative shorter training activity with the Charles de Gaulle group, but that is a matter which will be pursued in greater detail with the French in due course.

PATRICIA KARVELAS:    

On another issue, the American Government is unhappy about the 99 year lease of the Darwin Port going to a Chinese company with links to the Peoples Liberation Army. Barack Obama reportedly told Malcolm Turnbull he should give him a heads up about these sorts of things. Why did Defence give this the green light?

MINISTER PAYNE:

Well I'm sure you've had an opportunity to see the remarks of the Secretary of the Department of Defence in today's Australian, and in discussions with me, in discussions with the Chief of the Defence Force, discussions with Duncan Lewis, the head of Australia's security agency ASIO. There are no concerns relating to the lease of the Port of Darwin which has been undertaken by the Northern Territory Government, I hasten to add. There are no concerns that would motivate Defence to change its position on this matter. Now, if we need to, we always have, as Mr Richardson said in The Australian today, we have the power of the Defence Act to declare a contingency [indistinct] …

PATRICIA KARVELAS:    

How would that procedure work?

MINISTER PAYNE:           

… directed to do what we require. It sets out in legislation, it's a formal process and it's one which we retain.

PATRICIA KARVELAS:    

You say the Darwin Port is purely a commercial operation, but do you agree that it will still be strategically important to China, and so the Chinese military will naturally take an interest in protecting it?

MINISTER PAYNE:           

I'm not sure what you mean by that question. The Darwin Port is a commercial port. We lease a part of the port, which is actually, as I understand it, an extremely large facility, somewhere near three times the size of Sydney Harbour in fact. We lease a part of that. We refined our lease arrangements before the NT Government's announcement was made. And we have examined this process thoroughly - there has not been any identification of either a defence or a security interest that would warrant us seeking to prevent it or to block it.

PATRICIA KARVELAS:    

Strategy analyst Geoff Wade from the ANU says the Darwin deal is a key element in China's efforts to weaken the Australian alliance with the US. Do you reject that suggestion?

MINISTER PAYNE:           

Yes I do.

PATRICIA KARVELAS:    

Entirely?

MINISTER PAYNE:           

Well I also reject a number of the other things that have been said by that analyst today. For example I think it's important to note that in relation to his comments about visits of foreign warships, no foreign warships can visit Australia in any port without a special clearance, a diplomatic clearance that is approved by the Department of Defence in consultation with other relevant authorities at the time. No foreign warship can do that. That is part of the process under which we work. These are the guidelines that we use right around the nation. We are a very, very large maritime nation, and these issues will come up from time to time. But in regard to this particular lease both the Director-General of Security and the Defence Department are satisfied with the position in which we find ourselves.

PATRICIA KARVELAS:    

And still on China, Scott Morrison has blocked Chinese investors from buying the Kidman cattle property, which is apparently the biggest private property in the world. Was this influenced by defence concerns, given the property's proximity to the Woomera weapons testing range?

MINISTER PAYNE:           

Well it's not just proximity. Fifty per cent of the Anna Creek Station, which is the largest single property holding in the country, 50 per cent of that is actually located in the Woomera Prohibited Area. So clearly there are national security concerns in relation to foreign access to the Woomera Prohibited Area, and that is part of the consideration that we gave to Treasury in this matter.

PATRICIA KARVELAS:    

Nick Xenophon says this decision is, and I quote him, in stark contrast to the gobsmacking decision to allow the Port of Darwin to fall into the hands of a Chinese company with close links to the Chinese Government and the Peoples Liberation Army. How do you reconcile the two? Because they do seem inconsistent.

MINISTER PAYNE:           

They're in fact completely different. So we're not reconciling apples with apples, would be the point I would make in relation to Senator Xenophon's observations. We're in fact talking about a commercial port in the territory of the Northern Territory in one regard, in the other regard we are talking about the Woomera Prohibited Area, which Senator Xenophon knows well as a South Australian has very important strategic defence and security interests, and they are very, very different matters.

PATRICIA KARVELAS:    

Minister, it's been an absolute pleasure to have you RN Drive. Thanks for joining me.

MINISTER PAYNE:           

Thanks Patricia.

PATRICIA KARVELAS:    

And that's Marise Payne. She's the Minister for Defence, joining us on RN Drive.