Minister for Defence - Transcript - Interview with Tony Jones, Lateline

TONY JONES, PRESENTER:

Does the Australian Government consider that joining a campaign of air strikes against Islamic State militants could be part of its humanitarian mission? Well earlier this evening, Defence Minister Senator David Johnston joined us from our Parliament House studio.

David Johnston, thanks for joining us.

DAVID JOHNSTON, DEFENCE MINISTER:

Pleasure, Tony.

TONY JONES:

Now President Obama has begun the process of building a coalition of allies to join military action against Islamic State terrorists. Has Australia been approached?

DAVID JOHNSTON:

We haven't been approached yet other than with respect to humanitarian relief, and of course, we've had aircraft participating in dropping vital supplies to people who have been cut off so that we can assist them in company with a number of other allied participants.

TONY JONES:

Have you been approached informally? Because US officials today have briefed journalists. They expect Australia and Britain will be willing to join the US in an air campaign. Has the Government at least been sounded out on this?

DAVID JOHNSTON:

Well, we have discussions and we've just had AUSMIN, and, look, our relationship is very close with the Americans and obviously those discussions would touch on these atrocities, the potential genocide, the mass murders and all of the things that we're seeing unfolding in Iraq at the moment that give us cause for serious concern. And, you know, that's a topic that we've discussed and of course we've discussed where this might lead.

TONY JONES:

Well it's been reported this afternoon that the Australian Government is considering committing 24 Australian Hornet strike aircraft to the campaign. Is there any truth in that?

DAVID JOHNSTON:

Well, look, I'm not going to talk about what we might or might not do operationally. Currently, our focus is specifically from a humanitarian perspective. Now we do have a lot of capability at our fingertips. We did participate in 2003 in delivering ordnance onto the ground from our aircraft. Now we've got - as you've just mentioned, we've got Super Hornets. They're incredibly capable. They're exactly what flies off US aircraft carriers. Now, that's an obvious first port of call were we to consider it necessary to participate with our friends and our ally.

TONY JONES:

Do we have Super Hornets in the region, or are they prepared to go to the region if not?

DAVID JOHNSTON:

Well, we're at a high state of readiness. We're at a good state of readiness at all times. Apart from saying that, I wouldn't want to say any more.

TONY JONES:

But how long - I mean, if we are in a state of readiness, there must be a clear idea how long it would take to shift Australian aircraft to the region to air bases or aircraft carriers if that were to be the case. I mean, is there - if the readiness is there, how long might it take if the order came through?

DAVID JOHNSTON:

Well, Tony, let's just take a step back for a moment. First of all, I think the Americans and most of us would want to see a stable government in Baghdad. And that's not going to occur until 10th September when the new Prime Minister takes over. And if he's inclusive, I think that will make things a lot more visible, tangible and concrete going forward. So we're a long way from that. Secondly, we will need an invitation from the Iraqi Government. We'll need to settle rules of engagement. We'll need to do a whole host of things before we start talking about any form of deployment. These things are not just done at the turn of a key, although they may seem as much. So there's a long way to go before we start talking about deploying these sorts of systems into the field.

TONY JONES:

So that date in September where a new Iraqi government would be formed is a first kind of deadline, is it? I mean, you couldn't do anything before that?

DAVID JOHNSTON:

Well, well, can I say, the Secretary of State and the Secretary of State and Julie Bishop and I discussed that we think it's appropriate that a more inclusive government in Baghdad should be established before we start talking to them about what level of military assistance from the sort of group of allies who are so concerned would start to materialise. It's not just a simple matter of deploying aircraft, flying them in and doing the work. There has to be a very careful, methodical and appropriate permission from the Government. All of the i's need to be dotted, the t's need to be crossed.

TONY JONES:

But we're preparing for those possibilities, clearly.

DAVID JOHNSTON:

Well, as soon as we've seen beheadings, mass executions, genocidal villages wiped out, ethnic cleansing, of course the ADF immediately realises there is a potential and readiness begins to be developed.

TONY JONES:

Have you been briefed on the urgency and the situation around the northern Iraqi town of Amerli, where the UN is saying immediate action is needed to prevent the massacre of people from Iraq's Turkmen minority?

DAVID JOHNSTON:

Well, I'm aware of what's going on there. The only people that have any real capacity there are the Americans, I may say, and possibly the Kurds. Kojo is also a serious recent development. But, look, these are in line with what I've just described. This absolute humanitarian disaster of innocent civilians being slaughtered willy-nilly is something that is concerning, not just my Prime Minister, not just Australians, but right across Europe and of course the Americans and the Canadians are extremely concerned. We're all very, very upset at this development.

TONY JONES:

Indeed, the Prime Minister's statement today says that Australia's decision will be based on whether there is an achievable overall humanitarian purpose and a clear and proportionate role for Australia. That clearly is not ruling out, although, simple humanitarian air drops, is it? Anything - anything more than - I beg your pardon. It's not ruling out anything more than simple humanitarian air drops. In fact it's leaving the way open for air strikes.

DAVID JOHNSTON:

Well, air strikes are already going on. And those air strikes ...

TONY JONES:

By Australian forces, I mean.

DAVID JOHNSTON:

Well, look, those air strikes are being delivered for a reason. They're actually preserving civilian lives. Now, if this situation continues, I think it's incumbent upon nations that have a strong, clear and understandable reputation and sense of right and wrong to do the right thing here and assist a stable Iraqi government if we can get one to defend itself and to retake and assert some reasonable level of legitimate control over these villages.

TONY JONES:

In fact to reform a coalition of the willing, is that really what's being talked about?

DAVID JOHNSTON:

Well, I think you might describe it like that. Clearly, that looks like, you know, with - we have a bit of a difference this time. We've got the European countries, we've got the Brits, the French, the Germans, the United States of course, the Canadians, but we've also got, I think, the Saudis, the Emirates, the Turks and the Jordanians. Now that, I think, says a lot about how concerned these countries are and I think our concern, which is very, very grave - we have grave concerns about what's happening in Iraq - is shared by those surrounding countries.

TONY JONES:

But that is the - in a sense the extent of the coalition of the willing that might be in contemplation - all of those countries you just named. Is that correct?

DAVID JOHNSTON:

Well - and I don't think that's an exhaustive list, may I say.

TONY JONES:

The last time Australian strike aircraft operated in Iraq, you've mentioned yourself they had separate rules of engagement. They had separate rules as to where air strikes should happen and rules governing how they should happen and rules around whether civilian casualties might be in prospect. These rules were different than the Americans had. Would that be the same again if Australian aircraft were committed to these operations?

DAVID JOHNSTON:

Well, look, I don't want to speculate on what the actual rules of engagement will be. But let me say this: we pride ourselves in our capacity to avoid collateral and civilian damage. This is one of the first principles that Australia undertakes when it does particularly a counter-insurgency-type operation. Civilian casualties are completely a self-defeating event in the overall military objectives that we seek to pursue. Now, we will be strict, firm and legitimate in the way we deploy our assets.

TONY JONES:

And separate, in a sense, in a command sense, to the United States, is that correct?

DAVID JOHNSTON:

Well, we always conduct ourselves with Australian sovereignty at the forefront of our minds. We do things according to the way we perceive the law and the way we do our military business is always with every i dotted and every t crossed.

TONY JONES:

Yep. The Prime Minister's statement also refers to the potential for danger, that being taken into account. Are there specific dangers for Australian strike aircraft in that region? Are there ground-to-air missiles in the area that need to be considered? Or is that not in prospect?

DAVID JOHNSTON:

We do extensive risk assessments before we undertake any operations and we've been doing extensive risk assessments for all of our humanitarian work, as is the normal business-as-usual course.

TONY JONES:

Now, the US is seeking target information, it's reported, inside Syria, and may expand their operations to attacks in Syria. That's also a possibility. Would Australian forces be permitted to operate outside, if given permission from the Iraqi Government to operate in Iraq, would it be permitted to also operate outside Iraq in Syrian territory?

DAVID JOHNSTON:

Well, a permission from the Iraqi Government is obviously not a permission from the Syrian Government. The answer to that is I think very obviously no. However, I think the Syrian situation is a bit different. That is much more clouded, much more muddied.

TONY JONES:

Meaning there is no real, legitimate Syrian government at this stage?

DAVID JOHNSTON:

Look, I wouldn't want to speculate about what the Syrian situation is. We'd want to sit down at length with our ally, discuss the circumstances. But let's just remember that the motivation here is the preservation of innocent life. Who knows what's coming over the horizon? Iraq is the focus. We're currently immersed in a humanitarian relief mission there. I think we're actually making a difference in the preservation of innocent lives. You know, I won't speculate on where this is leading, but let me say, we are extremely concerned about the conduct we've seen so far.

TONY JONES:

But the tactical thinking currently is not to exclude the prospect of operations in Syrian territory. Is that correct?

DAVID JOHNSTON:

I'm not privy to the tactical operational considerations.

TONY JONES:

OK, but this would also be a political consideration. You'd be privy to that. I mean, is that a prospect at all? Because we know the United States is going for Islamic State. They are able just to slip across the border into Syria.

DAVID JOHNSTON:

I've told you our consideration is Iraq, our consideration is humanitarian and that's our focus at the moment. All of these matters are very much to be considered once we perceive that we have, firstly, an inclusive, legitimate government in Baghdad working to engage us and to give us the sort of permissions we see that we need to enter into Iraq and that we've discussed this fully with not just the United States, but with the other participating countries.

TONY JONES:

Alright. But we - Australia does go into this not knowing, effectively, what is over the horizon. That means at some point in the future, you're going to have to consider whether or not to commit Australian aircraft or other forces to operations in Syria, doesn't it?

DAVID JOHNSTON:

Well, it may mean that. I'm not sure of that, Tony. We do not have a crystal ball here. I've told you what our first priority is. It's the preservation of innocent lives in Iraq. That's our focus. How that plays out, I mean, if I could give you the answer to that, I'd be, you know, a very wealthy person. I'm not. We do things according to what confronts us. Our current focus is humanitarian. You know, this business of, "Can you rule in?, Can you rule out?," is really quite unproductive in terms of where this is leading. This is a shocking evolution for Iraq, and may I say, for all of the countries that have got foreign fighters. So, domestically, we're dealing with the legislation to protect our citizens from what's happening. Secondly, we are talking to our allies saying, "We are as concerned as you are," and President Obama's words today are very, very clear. This is a cancer. And we are, as I say, concerned and we will preserve life as of right now from a humanitarian perspective. But, we've, you know, with other countries agreed we must take some action.

TONY JONES:

Alright. The Prime Minister's statement also says Australia is not considering putting combat forces on the ground, meaning ground troops. Does that mean ground troops of any kind? Because we know that the SAS has the capability for long-range reconnaissance. That is an important factor when organising the targeting of difficult sites for combat aircraft. Are the SAS ruled out of this completely?

DAVID JOHNSTON:

Well you want me to editorialise the Prime Minister's commentary and I'm not going to do that. He said there'll be no combat troops on the ground.

TONY JONES:

Yeah. And that includes the SAS, does it?

DAVID JOHNSTON:

Well, no combat troops on the ground. If you define the SAS as combat troops, that's the answer.

TONY JONES:

Sure. And is that for now or is that a permanent decision no matter what happens in the future? Because I'm wondering whether the SAS are, like the other elements of Australian forces, being prepared for the possibility.

DAVID JOHNSTON:

I'm talking about the now and speculation as to what we might do in the future is really quite unproductive when we're talking about capability.

TONY JONES:

So, just a quick question then. The contingent obviously is there if the SAS is capable of doing this. Have any SAS forces been moved into the region?

DAVID JOHNSTON:

Look, we have a number of people, ADF personnel, deployed across the region, and I'm not prepared to discuss where and what they're doing. The fact is that we have a base at Al Minhad. We have a number of personnel in Afghanistan. We have excellent relationships across the region. We have a number of Middle Eastern countries with personnel at our staff college. You know, let's not get into who's where and what's happening. That also is something that is operational. And, you know, the public really I don't think need to know anything other than that we have a very good state of readiness and our principal focus is on the preservation of innocent lives in Iraq in confronting what is a serious threat there and potentially here.

TONY JONES:

And finally, to bring you back home briefly, the prospect of buying ready-made Japanese submarines is being considered, evidently. Will that be regarded as a broken promise if 10 submarines are not built in Adelaide at some time in the near future?

DAVID JOHNSTON:

Well, as I said in the Senate today, submarines are a very complex and expensive, necessary strategic deterrent for Australia. We are committed to a new submarine. We have about 40 submarine designers in Australia, so we will need to have a foreign design. Potentially, the foreign design can come for a diesel electric submarine from France, from Germany or from Japan. We have not made a decision. We are still working through what is probably Defence acquisitions' most complex program. May I say that when I opened the box entitled "SEA1000, The New Submarine", it was empty. It was empty. So we are virtually starting with a clean slate. Now, the United States at Electric Boat up in Grocon have almost 1,000 design engineers. The Germans have about 500 or 600. The French have a similar number. We've got about 40. Now, seriously, this problem needs to be addressed. We are working very hard. The fact is that my immediate priority is the Air Warfare Destroyer, which is several hundred million dollars over budget and several years late. That again has been bequeathed to us by a previously extremely incompetent Labor government.

TONY JONES:

Alright. A quick final question, though, because we know that Japanese technicians and officials ...

DAVID JOHNSTON:

Sure.

TONY JONES:

... have visited the shipyards in Adelaide. Are they looking at whether or not those shipyards could make part of a Japanese submarine for use in Australia, for example, a propulsion unit or something of that nature?

DAVID JOHNSTON:

What we've had is 16 Japanese Defence science technicians visit Adelaide. They'll be visiting Perth and they'll be visiting Canberra. Now, we've had French technicians, we've had German technicians, we've had members of the United States Navy and Electric Boat visit us in Adelaide and this is business as usual. We've signed a Defence science and technology exchange agreement with the Japanese. This is all part of that. Hydrodynamics is a very important consideration. But we're getting assistance from the French, we're getting assistance from the Germans, the Brits and the United States. So there is nothing and it's certainly not secret. I mean, I love this business about secret. Anything to do with Defence appears to be secret. It's very open. The fact that everybody knows about it means it's not secret. And I'm very pleased and honoured to see the Japanese down here. Our relationship is going very, very well.

TONY JONES:

David Johnston, we thank you very much for taking the time once again to come and join us on Lateline.

DAVID JOHNSTON:

Pleasure, Tony.