Minister for Defence - Transcript - Interview with Tony Jones, Lateline

Topic: Japan and Australia 2 + 2 talks.

TONY JONES, PRESENTER

To discuss those two-by-two talks with Japan, we were joined just a short time ago from Tokyo by the Defence Minister, Senator David Johnston.

David Johnston, thanks for joining us.

DAVID JOHNSTON, DEFENCE MINISTER

Good evening, Tony.

TONY JONES

Now do you see any risks at all in Australia's enthusiastic encouragement of Japan to rearm and fundamentally change its Defence structure?

DEFENCE MINISTER

Well they're not rearming, what they're doing is assuming a normal Defence posture, as any other country should be entitled to do. Now they have a constitution that they are currently dealing with in order to - in compliance with the Government's wish to resume a normal Defence posture, and we welcome that.

TONY JONES

Well I know you say they're not rearming, but they are buying anti-missile destroyers, submarines, amphibious vehicles, US fighter planes, drones and other aircraft, it's boosting its enrolment in military college. That is a significant rearmament, isn't it?

DEFENCE MINISTER

Well, look, every other country in our region and around the world has a Defence budget and if you want to go through and cherry pick what each country is buying, you would have a shopping list rather like that, so I don't think there's anything out of the ordinary with respect to that list.

TONY JONES

OK. For the first time in a decade, however, Japan is increasing its military spending by 2.6 per cent. That'll take it up to $232 billion roughly over the next five years. It's already the fifth-biggest military spender in the world. Are you worried that this will create tensions in the region?

DEFENCE MINISTER

No, I'm not. I think that Japan has disclosed over a very long period of time its capacity to be a peace-loving nation, to commit to UN peace-keeping forces around the world on a consistent basis and indeed showing restraint on a regular basis with respect to incursions and provocations that it encounters in terms of air space incursions and maritime incursions. Now, Japan has got a very proud recent history of peace, of doing things according to international law and being a good international citizen.

TONY JONES

OK. Prime Minister Abe calls all of this a "logical response to the increasing threat Japan faces", but China, on the other hand, accuses him of fear-mongering in order to, as they say, "stealthily advance his dream for Japan to again be a militarist power". Now Beijing claims this is going to create a regional arms race. Is China warning Australia to stay out of this?

 DEFENCE MINISTER

Well, firstly, I'm not going to run a commentary on political rhetoric-passing between China and Japan from Australia's perspective. That's very important - first point. Secondly, can I say we have also a very strong relationship with China. We are increasing our Defence ties with China; indeed China is coming to RIMPAC, we'll be exercising with China and indeed Julie Bishop and myself will be visiting China later this year. So that the relationship we have with Japan is about Australia and Japan and other nations in the region shouldn't read anything more than what I've just said into it.

TONY JONES

Every now and then though we see the tensions actually break out into the open. Just 10 days ago, the Chinese General Wang, who's the Deputy Chief of the General Staff of the People's Liberation Army, went off script - the Shangri-La Dialogue in Singapore; I think you were there - to accuse the US and Japan ...

 DEFENCE MINISTER

I was.

TONY JONES

... of provoking, threatening and intimidating China. How would you characterise the general's speech?

 DEFENCE MINISTER

Well, look, I'm not going to run a commentary on that, as I've said, but what we've been urging countries in the East China Sea and the South China Sea to do is to resolve their points of disputation pursuant to international law. Now, this is a very clear and consistent call from Australia. We are not going to take sides. This is the important point that Australia makes at every turn of every corner. But we want to see the parties to disputed air space and maritime boundaries resolve those issues pursuant to international law and negotiation.

TONY JONES

I'm not asking you to run a commentary on the general's statements, but he was responding directly to speeches from the US Defence Secretary and from the Japanese Prime Minister and he was doing it in public. Were you surprised by the vehemence of his statements?

DEFENCE MINISTER

No, I wasn't because that's what the Shangri-La Dialogue is all about; it's about sitting down and expressing one's views forthrightly and frankly, and he did that, as did Secretary Hagel, as did Prime Minister Abe and as did Australia through my own speech on Saturday. So, I don't think there's anything much out of the ordinary with respect to what General Wang had to say.

TONY JONES

So you don't regard it in any way as a warning to the rest of the world that China is actually very upset by these developments?

 DEFENCE MINISTER

No, I don't.

TONY JONES

The Foreign Minister Julie Bishop today said that Australia supports Japan working towards a normal Defence posture - you've just repeated that yourself, more or less - in line, she says, with the UN Charter right for countries to join collective self-defence. Now what are the implications if that change happens? What does it actually mean? What does it change in Japan's Defence posture?

 DEFENCE MINISTER

Well, I think that in terms of humanitarian and disaster relief and UN operations, Japan will be able to be armed and have capacity to undertake peace-keeping operations in a normal way such that Australia does, such that the United States and literally dozens of other countries do, particularly in places like South Sudan. And those sorts of matters are very important for countries such as Australia particularly when we partner with Japan, and we've been with them in Cambodia, East Timor, Iraq and now we're with them in South Sudan. It is important, we think, that they assume a normal posture and are not constrained by their constitution.

TONY JONES

Collective self-defence obviously means one thing in terms of peace-keeping; it means another thing altogether when it comes to territorial dispute. So, if, for example, China were to move to assert its control over the disputed Senkaku Islands in the East China Sea, would this changed Defence posture actually mean that Japan could join US military forces to defend or attempt to take back the islands?

DEFENCE MINISTER

Well, look, let's not get into speculation here. I mean, this is very, very unhelpful. We have about 40 per cent of our export capacity on the water in the South China Sea and the East China Sea at any given time. Now our call to all parties is to sit down and resolve such matters peacefully. I believe Japan has heeded that call, but, look, every country has a right to self-defence. We would certainly not deny that. What we have said is that Japan, as a peace-loving country, certainly for the last 30 or 40 years, has the right to adopt and assume a normal Defence posture and I think that's very, very clear.

TONY JONES

But that would also include if their territory were under threat. Now, what we've actually heard in April this year from President Obama is that he reaffirmed, made a very clear statement that the US was prepared to use military force to defend those islands as an obligation under its treaty with Japan. It wouldn't want to do that alone, would it?

DEFENCE MINISTER

Well that's a matter for the United States. And that's a matter for the United States relationship with Japan. Now that relationship is a very special relationship. It is not a relationship that Australia is formally part of.

TONY JONES

Now I understand what you're saying, but if the United States were to get into a territorial conflict with China, is there any chance at all that Australia could also be drawn into it because of our ANZUS alliance with the United States?

DEFENCE MINISTER

Look, the circumstances that you're putting forward are very speculative. It is not conducive to our role in the region for me to speculate about whether we would or would not get involved. We would need to know all of the nuances of each of the circumstances and the situation more broadly before a decision was made. The fact is that we have a strong relationship with both China, a strong relationship with South Korea, Taiwan and Japan. And what we're doing up here this week is to say to Japan, "We are supportive of you assuming a normal Defence posture going forward."

TONY JONES

But we know that Australia does have a history of joining the United States in most of its wars, particularly regional conflicts. What does the ANZUS alliance say exactly, because I presume you would have looked at it very closely as Defence Minister, if the United States gets into any conflict with China?

DEFENCE MINISTER

Well it doesn't say that; it's about threats to the security of both nations. Now, you know, as I've said, Tony, we will look at the circumstances. We're not going to speculate about matters that are a very long way away from Australia, but we want to commend the parties for resolving matters pursuant to international law and that is very, very important.

TONY JONES

So just to complete that answer, does the ANZUS alliance commit Australia or not if the United States is in a conflict in our region?

 DEFENCE MINISTER

I don't believe it does.

TONY JONES

Now there's no question that China is upping the ante in its territorial disputes in both the East China Sea and the South China Sea. It's sent an oil rig into waters south of Hainan, it's reportedly building an airstrip in the middle of the Spratly Islands, its fighter aircraft have buzzed Japanese fighter aircraft in this air exclusion - or the Air Defense Identification Zone - ADIZ, as they call it. This is all very risky stuff, isn't it? I mean, could it go terribly wrong, any of this?

DEFENCE MINISTER

Well, what you're adverting to is miscalculation. Ad we have said that unilateral action - regardless of going to international forums, unilateral action to determine air space boundaries and maritime boundaries is unhelpful and regrettable and we do not support such action. I think our position is very, very clear that conduct with respect to the rig and other unilateral action, setting air defence zones, has been inappropriate, as I say, unilateral and provocative.

TONY JONES

Does it worry you at all that China might take its cues from the Russian President Putin, who seems to have gotten away with using force to grab a chunk of the Ukraine, the Crimea, with nothing more effectively than a slap over the wrist from the United States and Western powers?

 DEFENCE MINISTER

Well I think there is a great deal of difference between the Ukraine, where there are a lot of Russian nationals, Russian heritage on the ground in Ukraine and what we're seeing in the East China Sea and the South China Sea. What I've observed is unilateral action, which, as we have said, particularly through Foreign Minister Bishop and myself, we have said this is very unhelpful and should not be the way to go forward, and we've urged China, and we will continue to urge China, to resolve territorial disputation pursuant to international law.

TONY JONES

I'm sure you would have heard this with your Japanese partners, but the Japanese Prime Minister, Shinzo Abe, a week ago told the leaders of the G7 - and he made very specifically this comparison with what Russia has gotten away with - that, "It must not be permitted for a country to challenge the status quo by force anywhere in the world". He was talking about China there, wasn't he? Are the Japanese conveying these kind of fears directly to you?

DEFENCE MINISTER

Well, they're discussing the fact that there are incursions into disputed air space and incursions into disputed maritime areas. Now to this point in time, there has been a very large number of those sorts of incursions and what we are very concerned about and what we've discussed with the Japanese is the restraint that needs to be shown. We've urged both sides, because we don't take sides - let me say that again: we do not take sides in this - we've urged both parties to resolve these matters appropriately pursuant to international law and at the negotiation table.

TONY JONES

Can we be clear on this? Are you saying that Australia would not take sides even if there was a conflict over this territory that might involve Japan and the United States?

DEFENCE MINISTER

The very first thing we say with both sides - and we've been saying it here in Tokyo this week - is that we do not take sides. Disputation between parties as to their sovereign boundaries must be resolved between those parties pursuant to international law. That is the first thing Australia says.

TONY JONES

But is that a guarantee that Australia would never take sides if this conflict were to escalate?

DEFENCE MINISTER

Well, I'm not in the business of speaking on behalf of the Government in circumstances that are purely speculative and I would never do that, so giving guarantees of very low currency value is not something I'm prepared to do.

TONY JONES

OK. Finally, with restrictions on Japanese arms sales to be lifted, you're looking closely at Japanese submarines. Are you looking to buy fully-built submarines or to seek to have them constructed along the Japanese model using their technology in Australia?

DEFENCE MINISTER

What we're looking at initially is a Defence, science and technology exchange. We are working towards an agreement to that. You would understand, Tony, that submarine technology is very sensitive for both countries. We are taking very small steps. Japan is one of several countries we are talking to actively about our new submarine program. So we're talking to the French, the Germans, the Japanese, we're also getting assistance from the United Kingdom and from the United States. We'll see how this plays out in Japan. We have a very strong and friendly relationship with Japan from a Defence point of view, from a military point of view. Let's not get ahead of ourselves. We're taking small steps as to initially small technological exchanges based around hydrodynamics and other related matters.

TONY JONES

But do you have a kind of strategy here? Is the strategy to effectively find the technology and build the submarines in Australia? Has that been resolved or is it still an open question as to whether you may buy literally off-the-shelf submarines?

 DEFENCE MINISTER

Look, we're still working our way through the options that are on the table back in Australia, but we're seeking some amount of technical assistance from countries that have specialist understanding and design technology in the diesel-electric submarine space. Now as I've said, there are a few countries that specialise in diesel-electric submarines. We're talking to virtually all of them about the technology exchange they might be prepared to make going forward. Japan is one of those countries.

TONY JONES

David Johnston, we'll have to leave you there. We believe you've got to run off to another meeting. We thank you very much for taking the time to talk to us.

DEFENCE MINISTER

A pleasure, Tony.